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Post by worstwaifu on Mar 19, 2016 18:19:34 GMT -8
I'd try and lighten the mood a bit but I'm not a fan of explosive decompression. Oh, don't worry - I'm just OCD. Even if it sounds like I'm mad (and I get told that I do alot), I'm not. It's just me being painfully blunt 'bout what I think ^_^; I'm a lazy reader here, so I just dodge reading most long stuff.
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Post by vaendryl on Mar 19, 2016 18:28:19 GMT -8
Actually... that's far off the mark. Let me please make something as clear I (hopefully) can - I am not, and never was, debating with you under the pretense that it would magically change anything, nor that you had anything to do with how LibDay's story turned out. I am, and always was, debating with you purely because I flat-out disagree with what you've said thus far in defense of the course it took and state why people (not me specifically - the general Sunrider audience, a lot of which had issues with forced romance) disliked what happened in the game. Because honestly, the fact of the matter is I'd sooner accuse you of defending LibDay's story just because you're a Chigara fan then I would over you being a dev (not that I actually think that, mnd you - just a bad example at work ). Point of fact being that you being on staff has no bearing on why I argue with you on this. K. Thing is... rushing the player-character down a romance-path AND lynching a waifu's potential for romance, all as a forced plot-point (even if it's a waifu that people have lost interest in) doesn't tend to speak of "future possibilities" that most would find "exciting". To a lot of people, it speaks more to the story being dominated by rushed contrivance instead of actual storytelling. Again, had it been executed better, maybe more would feel as you do - as it is now though, even people who can see both sides like Marx have admitted they'd rather shoot themselves in the head then go through the romance's dialouge.
See, that's just it - I'm not at all opposed to how the story in LibDay was done. I have seen non-choosable, plot-essential romances work before. I have seen this kind of thing done repeatedly in anime, manga and VN's alike. Hell, even Gundam SEED Destiny, for all the flack it got/gets, did well in my opinion regarding main-character Shinn Auska's failed romance/bond with enemy bio-modified soldier Stella Loussier, which in turn drove him as a character-development point even after he ended up in a new relationship with long-time friend and fellow pilot Lunamaria Hawke. What I had concerns with though was the same thing that arguably plagued GSD; the execution of it - even senior people like Marx found that romance was terribly forced. It is not a "deep rooted issue" so much as a general concern that at a sizable part, if not a majority, of the community shared one level or another. And that is; if you're going to make a 'railroad romance' in a VN, either make it controlable how far it goes (opt out of sex or the like) or spend as much time as possible developing it and getting the pacing down right (put more space between scenes of kissing, sex and talk of marriage with kids and pets respectively) - because otherwise it's going to come across as a forced plot-contrivance.
So, the problem isn't so much that the the MC had a forced romance but just that the one that was there sucked? well yeah. it wasn't very interesting (and far from satisfying) as far as romance stories go. Not sure if I wanted a more slow-paced build-up of the romance. Actually preferred to have it over and done with as quickly as it was. The lines between them are far too saccharine and unnatural, but that too felt fitting as the whole romance was essentially a combination of suspension-bridge effect, emotional overload on Shields' part and prototype manipulation tactics (with Claude doing whatever she could to push them further together for her own reasons). It would result in what can only be compared to a shotgun wedding. Chigara was exactly what Shields thought he wanted her to be. it was a mistake from beginning to end, which was obvious unless you got swept up in the atmosphere as Shields was. When Shields had some time to reflect even he could look back and see it for the mistake it was. Turns out though that disregarding everything, Chigara did somehow start to develop real feelings of love towards the captain despite being a prototype. And then they had sex because lol eroge. Maybe my expectations were very different but having a sex scene thrown in because the opportunity is there just seems par for the course. I feel it does bring the 2 closer together though than is plausible without it. rushing up and snogging her to dispel a mindjack just because they drank some tea together sometimes seems a hard sell. I know you feel differently about this, but just consider me as being a cynic and having a different view on how people tick. none of this means you don't have valid points. you do, and I understand why you feel the way you do. however, I too would like to explain why I see things the way I do and generally don't really have that much of an issue with this as a whole. TL;DR: the romance with chigara seemed shit because it was.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 19, 2016 19:38:17 GMT -8
So, the problem isn't so much that the the MC had a forced romance but just that the one that was there sucked? well yeah. it wasn't very interesting (and far from satisfying) as far as romance stories go. Not sure if I wanted a more slow-paced build-up of the romance. Actually preferred to have it over and done with as quickly as it was. The lines between them are far too saccharine and unnatural, but that too felt fitting as the whole romance was essentially a combination of suspension-bridge effect, emotional overload on Shields' part and prototype manipulation tactics (with Claude doing whatever she could to push them further together for her own reasons). It would result in what can only be compared to a shotgun wedding. Chigara was exactly what Shields thought he wanted her to be. it was a mistake from beginning to end, which was obvious unless you got swept up in the atmosphere as Shields was. When Shields had some time to reflect even he could look back and see it for the mistake it was. Turns out though that disregarding everything, Chigara did somehow start to develop real feelings of love towards the captain despite being a prototype. And then they had sex because lol eroge. Maybe my expectations were very different but having a sex scene thrown in because the opportunity is there just seems par for the course. I feel it does bring the 2 closer together though than is plausible without it. rushing up and snogging her to dispel a mindjack just because they drank some tea together sometimes seems a hard sell. I know you feel differently about this, but just consider me as being a cynic and having a different view on how people tick. none of this means you don't have valid points. you do, and I understand why you feel the way you do. however, I too would like to explain why I see things the way I do and generally don't really have that much of an issue with this as a whole. TL;DR: the romance with chigara seemed shit because it was. More or less. I have little doubt in my mind that what happened in LibDay could have been better received if only it were paced better - even if people complained about there being no choices, what happened would have still been more acceptable had it been executed better then it was.
Having it done quickly was probably what stung the worse for people - it felt like something as serious as 'who the MC loves', which was arguably something this game toted as a big feature of this series, was just arbitrarily forced down their throats for "plot needs this". It felt anything but fitting - it felt jarring; it took what was a deep, caring bond between Kayto and Chigara that was built up over MoA and even as far back as FA and trivialized it to a shotgun-romance, and emotional overload doesn't go far enough to justify "sex, living together, kids, pets and marriage" in less then a week after the first kiss . It'd have been better if it was over a month or so, or if Kayto and Chigara already been dating and kissing in MoA. Having it all in LibDay... again, the game was far too short to try and justify that as being realistic even for a suspension-bridge effect, because there is a difference between being "swept up in the atmosphere" and "suspending disbelief to moronic levels", and LibDay fell into the latter when it came to romance.
And for the record, that's "par for the course" for either a SINGLE-ENTRY game where all the story's in one installment over weeks or even months in-game... or it's the mark of a straight-up no-story eroge if there's no present plot-requirements. For example; Fate/Stay Night used it as an actual plot mechanic so that, even if forced, there was an in-story reason for it. In LibDay, it feels like it was done "just because", and that is the mark of fanservice for fanservice's sake instead of actually being something the characters would do - you might get away doing this with someone like Claude because the "shotgun romance" atmosphere would fit more with her character... but the gentle, shy and reserved Chigara is really the absolute last person this kind of romance-model would generally work with. Had it been longer, or even if what's presently there was just re-balanced a bit, it might not have gotten even half the complaints that it did. And I'm a cynic for the opposite reason because it feels like you're basically saying "sex = love, no sex = no love" - and I really think that's pretty darn shallow way to think because, if Kayto and Chigara were really in love - or even if Chigara was the only one that loved Kayto - they wouldn't NEED to have sex to prove it; love is love.
Long story short - It feels like you think the fact it was short and quick mitigates that it was shit, and if so then I disagree.
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Post by planguy on Mar 19, 2016 21:15:02 GMT -8
I think that moving forward deciding Kayto's emotional reactions to various events should be up to the player. We're shaping the kind of person Kayto is. Hopefully the reaction to Liberation Day is met with, "Oh, so that's where we went wrong." rather then "You just don't know what you like."
The outsider perspective has been granted and they don't like where this train is going. Is the game supposed to be a kinetic novel that you proceed through by winning at space battles? Or do your choices matter? Getting involved with Chigara wasn't a choice that should have been taken from the players control, the same way that you don't force the choice of murdering a ship full of space orphans on the player. The player should decide if Kayto is the kind of guy who would romance Chigara, if he is willing to destroy that ship to attain his goals.
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Post by vaendryl on Mar 19, 2016 22:10:56 GMT -8
Long story short - It feels like you think the fact it was short and quick mitigates that it was shit, and if so then I disagree.
My point was that it was shit because it made sense to be, and I preferred it being short if it was going to. Also, I'm not quite equating sex = love, but I am saying that any relationship with sex is going to be more intimate than one without.
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Post by Blackhead on Mar 19, 2016 23:00:20 GMT -8
and emotional overload doesn't go far enough to justify "sex, living together, kids, pets and marriage" in less then a week after the first kiss . It'd have been better if it was over a month or so, or if Kayto and Chigara already been dating and kissing in MoA. Having it all in LibDay... again, the game was far too short to try and justify that as being realistic even for a suspension-bridge effect, because there is a difference between being "swept up in the atmosphere" and "suspending disbelief to moronic levels", and LibDay fell into the latter when it came to romance. I wouldn't generalize this, you're underestimating the power of love. There are people who have themselves under contol, and there are people who tend to get irrational and reckless when they fall in love. Hate to bring it up again, but it fits in perfectly to bring my point across. Maybe some of you remember the post I made a while back, where I wrote about this girl who I was forced to house in my room. Long story short. Surprise, surprise, there really was more between her and my housemate. I'm having first hand experience of how moronic love can be at the moment. After weeks he still insists on me keeping her in my room, he is blind in recognizing her horrible character traits and tries to make excuses for all the bullshit she pulls. (Took me not even a day to figure out what kind of person she is - look at my original post.) Believe me this is both, pathetic and saddening to see great friendships break in such manner. So here you go, real life example of an even more ridiculous case, because Chigara unlike this girl, isn't actively harming anyone. (only passively through causing jealousy etc.) Sidenote: I'm not defendind LD's horrible writing, but merely suggesting that the way their love expressed was in touch with reality. For example; Fate/Stay Night used it as an actual plot mechanic so that, even if forced, there was an in-story reason for it. In LibDay, it feels like it was done "just because", and that is the mark of fanservice for fanservice's sake instead of actually being something the characters would do If you just regard LD you're right of course. But as I and many others said before, Chigara romance serves as setup/establishment for furture titles. I don't think Samu would simply ignore that. I'd be shocked if he did. Would a platonic relationship between Kayto/Chigara in Lib Day do as well? Possibly. Although it's more than 1-2 small changes you have to make to do this right. There are many little details in dialogue you would have to redo. (Not only Chigara, but also how all the other crewmembers reflect the relationship. I'm afraid the "Oh Chigara/Shields never really were a pair - we got it all wrong approach" wouldn't cut it. Talking about shitty writing here.) Would it work out with whatever Samu planned in the future? Unlikely. Point is, that it doesn't matter how much you love someone, or if you can love a close friend/family member as much as your lover. It's more important to understand that these two options are inherently very DIFFERENT from another. Different in the way characters feel for each other, different in the way their love is expressed. I'm 100% certain that there is reason behind this choice, otherwise we would truly reach rock bottom in terms of writing.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 19, 2016 23:29:42 GMT -8
Long story short - It feels like you think the fact it was short and quick mitigates that it was shit, and if so then I disagree.
My point was that it was shit because it made sense to be, and I preferred it being short if it was going to. Also, I'm not quite equating sex = love, but I am saying that any relationship with sex is going to be more intimate than one without. And in turn, my point was that it didn't really make sense to be at all - not in its current state at least - because of how jarringly-contrived it became. Being in a relationship because of positive-reassurance dependency and stress is more understandable - kids, living together and spending their lives together is another thing entirely. Especially if it all happens in less then a week... ...and the only way to mitigate it is practically to at some point have it state, as bluntly as possible, that Kayto was deliberately pushing things and straight-up forcing what was practically a fever-dream fantasy and Chigara simply accommodated him because she was too in love with him to deny him. Which would make him a complete asshole for what happened - though it would be char-development if he was forced to acknowledge that. The thing is... you kinda need to be intimate to even be at the point where sex is considered the next step. Once again, it's a definition I don't quite understand because it's like saying that in terms of family, relatives are supposed to be loved less then a spouse/girlfriend as a rule purely because you can't/don't have sex with them; that a love that doesn't involve sex is somehow inferior or weaker then one that does... even though that in turn undermines the entire surrogate-family dynamic the Sunrider crew has. In my experience, intimacy is a requirement of sex, not simply an end-result - it's an expression of how intimate you've ultimately become, not something you do purely to become more intimate. Now that's not to say what you're saying can't be the case in relationships any more or less then what I've said, but it's hardly the rule. Now, to try and get it back on track, I've actually looked at these comments and formed some kind of working theories on how other girls might approach Kayto's state. And while I doubt you and I will agree about whether LibDay implemented it good or bad, I do acknowledge your point that it makes an interesting character-development point for future romances now that I've had some time to think on it all. I could really see each girl having different reactions (brace yourselves - this is gonna be a long one);
- Icari; If there is in fact an option to have her be with Kayto and the stuff with Kryska is just a cock-tease (figuratively speaking of course ), then I think Icari in particular would probably be very understanding of Kayto post-Chigara - in her begrudging, sarcastic tsundere way that is. Because, by her own admission in MoA, she’s been here before - doing things she came to regret when she fell into an emotional rut. Hell, it's even arguable that the pirate-guy she mentioned in MoA was a mirror to Kayto and Chigara; a romance she inadvertently started as a dependence tool back when she was learning to cope with her own emotional issues. Plus, her pushing the relationship between Kayto and Chigara as far back as First Arrival might make her feel somewhat responsible for how it ultimately turned out, both with Chigara and with the actions Asaga took.
If I could pick a 'theme' I think an Icari romance would follow, it would be 'Acquiescence'; coming to accept that what happened happened and that it's pointless to dwell because it can't be changed.
- Asaga; She would probably be the same as Icari in this sense - more accepting since she's also guilty of having let emotional neediness and want land her into doing something she wouldn’t really have chosen to do. However, unlike Icari, the wounds would be fresh, so she might have an easier time emphasizing with a Kayto who is still reeling from it then someone who's got a few years hindsight like Icari does. The two could also have a very intimate bond coping mechanic regarding Chigara herself - they both knew her and cared for her in their own way, and her fate might serve as something the two could bond over, be it through regret or acceptance of what happened. It would also be nice to see Asaga have to come to terms with the fact that the girl she thought of as a sister ultimately met the very same tragic end Asaga herself had wished for back in her embittered state, and guilt over that could tie into Kayto's guilt of having not seen it all coming or having let Asaga's hate fester without ever seeing it.
If I could pick a 'theme' I think an Asaga romance would follow, it would be 'Absolution'; learning to forgive oneself of failings and others to move past guilt to a new day for those that remain.
- Ava; The commander would probably more complicated then the others - she's always been a very up-front person when it comes to her opinion of Kayto doing something wrong. So, even with the reconciliation in V2.00, she might not hesitated to deem Kayto all manner of things; selfish, emotional and ultimately having proven her right about his endangering the crew just to try and prove some point to everyone (including himself) about his faith in Chigara not being a dependency act for his own security. Yet in the end, if anything between them were to happen, Ava would probably have to also confront the idea that her own failure to be Kayto’s support - her inability to be the grounding, open, unreserved and emotionally-reassuring second that Kayto himself had been to Ava as school president - might have been part of what lead him to that sorry state. Effectively, a Kayto/Ava pairing would require she'd have to accept that her trying to keep things neutral and unchained only resulted in feeding Kayto's need to have someone accept him without judgement, effectively giving him a persecution complex.
If I could pick a 'theme' I think an Ava romance would follow, it would be 'Resolution'; how long-standing feelings can twist events simply because things were left unspoken or unfinished and that how it ends is what matters.
- Sola; Having likely seen death caused by far less, Sola would perhaps be a bit more neutral then anyone else and liken it to this being a general failing of people, which in turn would play into what she'd told Asaga in LibDay; having emotions always risks them going astray. She may likely not agree with how Kayto potentially fell without thinking into a relationship with Chigara, yet might not fault him for it - she would arguably be a far more unbiased judge for character and circumstance in events like this and that vices are very common. In short, Solay would probably be denote that such things were why she works to keep her own ties to others impersonal - yet, ironically, that might also make Sola one of the first to assure Kayto that his weakness of the heart and falling into things probably makes him MORE human, not less; something that would likely be a prime issue Kayto would need to confront in grappling whether or not he was just using Chigara's love for him to comfort his own insecurities.
If I could pick a 'theme' I think a Sola romance would follow, it would be "Introspection"; looking at oneself and possibly seeing their past and present actions with new definitions, thus redefining what is or isn't a fault or strength.
- Claude; If she actually does turn out to be an option, I really imagine she'd either wouldn’t mind or wouldn’t care that Kayto had been with someone else. In fact, if you want to get character development for Claude in there as well, it could be that she would be the first to advocate that Kayto WASN'T WRONG to have had that brief relationship with Chigara. By that, I mean Claude would probably say that, even if it ultimately didn’t end well, being with Chigara helped remind Kayto that he didn’t need to shoulder every burden on his own and that everybody in the world needs someone or something to lean against - it reminded him that he was not a mountain but a man; that he's still human no matter what and that humans need emotional support because they simply are not and never will be perfect. I also think Claude also could possibly be the first to advocate that what happened with Chigara doesn’t mean he can’t trust anyone else with his heart or that he should forever abstain from another relationship, because bottling those feelings up without release was what lead him into over-dependence on a release (his bond with Chigara) the moment he had one.
If I could pick a 'theme' I think a Claude romance would follow, it would be "Progression"; acknowledging not just what happened but that perhaps that it was needed or even for the best because you learned from it either way.
- Kryska; I think she's regarded largely as a 'bro' character the way Chigara was, though is also far harder to anticipate since she's basically the only girl besides Cosette who's expressed no romantic attraction to Kayto. That said, if something like this did happen, I would imagine it would largely focus on the two's definitions of duty and responsibility - how they both became blinded by the idea the people they fought for (Chigara and Gray respectively) were incorruptible and how their emotional devotion caused them to inadvertently betray the very people and ideals they fought so long and hard to protect. That in turn could play into how the two react to the prospect of trying to find a new cause to fight for in the Sunrider crew in the absence of the Alliance and Cera and the hope of restoring those old goals and integrity, which in turn leads the two down a path together.
If I could pick a 'theme' I think a Kryska romance would follow, it would be 'Determination'; resolving to not let a personal failing defeat them and strive to not repeat it, learning how to keep walking in spite of the hits.
- Chigara; If this is resumed at some point, I really doubt the Chigara Ashada that it's with is anything like the one before the end of LibDay. Between the fact that; A- that her entire past was a lie because it was all actually lived by someone else (Alice/Arcadius) B- that her father was an unapologetic sociopathic monster of a scientist C- that her very existence betrayed Kayto, Asaga and everyone she cared about D- whatever trauma DYING might have done to her mind E- her failed romance with Kayto and the belief that it might have simply been him stress-venting with her as a convenient outlet F- possibly that she knew or suspected the relationship wasn't actually "real" on Kayto's end and did it anyway just to make him happy, sacrificing her own happiness for it G- assimilating traits from Lynn or Alice in whatever hive-mindstream the Prototypes are all connected to ;Whatever's going to be seen has a really, really low chance of still being the same Chigara from before. In turn, Kayto would have to confront the fact that he not only failed her because of her death but because, without even realizing it at the time, he'd manipulated her for his own comfort and took advantage of her unconditional love and effectively ruined her. Any future relationship between the two would have to deal with not only the implications of what that original bond really was but on how to try and move past it, as well as whether or not the two even really still feel for each-other as well as if they ever actually were in love to begin with. Chigara would additionally likely now understand something she might never have truly felt before; bitterness and angst, which might help to tie into Kayto's own feelings of it and help her realize that perhaps she wasn't quite so understanding of his full feelings as she believed and question whether her prior "love" was just empathy.
If I could pick a 'theme' I think a Chigara romance would follow, it would be 'Devotion'; staying the course one has previously taken out of obligation, a sense of responsibility or love regardless of what transpired before.
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Post by Somasam on Mar 19, 2016 23:29:45 GMT -8
Huh, you know Vaen, that is an interesting point that you brought up about "the romance being shit cause it was." I typically take people's behaviors at face value (not just in the things I read/play, but in real life too. I am probably a lot more trusting than I should be. And that is probably a sign that I don't really get people all that well either; I only really understand what people feel if they directly tell me or if they make it glaringly obvious, the more subtle stuff kinda goes over my head.) Because of this, I usually don't notice at first the intrigue in a series or the hidden motives of other characters. Perhaps its just me being kinda slow, but I was still not entirely sure at the end of libday if Chigara was always connected with the prototypes and having all her decisions made by the hive mind, or if she was largely isolated and her own thing and only fell under the prototype control when she voluntarily re-mind-merged. While at first I thought the latter, I am now starting to believe that we were always communicating with the chigara that the prototypes wanted us to see. And that does make the idea that the whole relationship with chigara was completely orchestrated, including Chigara's half in it as well. How she kept saying things that would make kayto feel more and more committed to a relationship so that he felt more committed to her as well I also think is cool and cleaver. However, I feel that if the idea of "the romance being shit cause it was" was actually expressed in story to a greater extent, then it would've probably helped a lot of people get over the whole thing. Again, I am bad at reading people and prefer if they just tell me what they think straight to my face; but if it had been directly stated in story that the whole 'romance' was just a ruse to control Kayto by the prototypes, I feel it would've justified the very fast pace and some of the decisions made by Chigara and Kayto in their romance arc.
Perhaps one of the ways this could've been handled is if someone would've just gone up to Kayto's face and straight up told him that his relationship was going too fast or was too good to be true. Putting cracks in both his mind and the audience's mind about the nature of the whole thing. Kayto would've probably still rejected this notion, but now there would always be some doubt, some nagging feeling that perhaps, it is too good to be true and his relationship with Chigara isn't as it seems. That way it could give a new dynamic to both their relationship, and the progression of the story as the betrayal comes to ahead. Course, I am not a very good author and I have no idea if this method would've actually worked too well in an actual story.
Not sure If I should keep or delete this last part, too tired to tell if its even that good or constructive to the rest of my point. Read it if you want and please take what will from it, but I am starting to think that my original post was long enough and doesn't need this extra bit of noise, so into the spoiler it goes.
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Post by Drath on Mar 19, 2016 23:33:10 GMT -8
TL;DR: the romance with chigara seemed shit because it was. I would like to focus on the positives and what I liked, so once again I'll say I liked the old Ava-Kayto childhood arc and found that thoroughly romantic. I also liked how Maray constantly teases Kayto mercilessly in Sunrider Academy, but that's another story xD I'd probably do a scene where Ava is alone in her room, looking at her old personal belongings and sees something Kayto shared with her during their childhood, which she's kept till now, ramble a little on her feelings, the people she has lost (why does Kayto get to be featured as the only one majorly traumatized anyway), etc. I'll have to be honest, I didn't really like Sola in First Arrival. She seemed flat and not terribly responsive. But I've warmed to her quite a bit in MoA and in Lib Day. I think the beach scene explains a bit on why she is the way she is and Liberation Day reveals that she is quite insightful and observant even if she doesn't speak very much. Even if she isn't my favorite, I wouldn't mind seeing some scenes between her and Kayto. Doesn't need to involve physical intimacy that much. Awkward flirting and/or unintentional exposure is fine for me as a start. Then again romance/love is a very personal thing. Not expecting anyone to agree. But well I have a "story input quota" to fulfil, so I guess I might as well give my misguided 2 cents on it. P/S - It's ok if it's worth less than 2 cents after adjusted for inflation, at least it's out there PP/S - Claude's scenes on the other hand should involve lots of skin, rubbing herself against Kayto whenever she can (if you've got them, flaunt them ), and saying silly stuff like "You want them bigger, Captain? I can make them bigger! I really can!" Ok I think I'll shut up now... ._.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 19, 2016 23:49:42 GMT -8
and emotional overload doesn't go far enough to justify "sex, living together, kids, pets and marriage" in less then a week after the first kiss . It'd have been better if it was over a month or so, or if Kayto and Chigara already been dating and kissing in MoA. Having it all in LibDay... again, the game was far too short to try and justify that as being realistic even for a suspension-bridge effect, because there is a difference between being "swept up in the atmosphere" and "suspending disbelief to moronic levels", and LibDay fell into the latter when it came to romance. I wouldn't generalize this, you're underestimating the power of love. There are people who have themselves under contol, and there are people who tend to get irrational and reckless when they fall in love. Hate to bring it up again, but it fits in perfectly to bring my point across. Maybe some of you remember the post I made a while back, where I wrote about this girl who I was forced to house in my room. Long story short. Surprise, surprise, there really was more between her and my housemate. I'm having first hand experience of how moronic love can be at the moment. After weeks he still insists on me keeping her in my room, he is blind in recognizing her horrible character traits and tries to make excuses for all the bullshit she pulls. (Took me not even a day to figure out what kind of person she is - look at my original post.) Believe me this is both, pathetic and saddening to see great friendships break in such manner. So here you go, real life example of an even more ridiculous case, because Chigara unlike this girl, isn't actively harming anyone. (only passively through causing jealousy etc.) Sidenote: I'm not defendind LD's horrible writing, but merely suggesting that the way their love expressed was in touch with reality. For example; Fate/Stay Night used it as an actual plot mechanic so that, even if forced, there was an in-story reason for it. In LibDay, it feels like it was done "just because", and that is the mark of fanservice for fanservice's sake instead of actually being something the characters would do If you just regard LD you're right of course. But as I and many others said before, Chigara romance serves as setup/establishment for furture titles. I don't think Samu would simply ignore that. I'd be shocked if he did. Would a platonic relationship between Kayto/Chigara in Lib Day do as well? Possibly. Although it's more than 1-2 small changes you have to make to do this right. There are many little details in dialogue you would have to redo. (Not only Chigara, but also how all the other crewmembers reflect the relationship. I'm afraid the "Oh Chigara/Shields never really were a pair - we got it all wrong approach" wouldn't cut it. Talking about shitty writing here.) Would it work out with whatever Samu planned in the future? Unlikely. Point is, that it doesn't matter how much you love someone, or if you can love a close friend/family member as much as your lover. It's more important to understand that these two options are inherently very DIFFERENT from another. Different in the way characters feel for each other, different in the way their love is expressed. I'm 100% certain that there is reason behind this choice, otherwise we would truly reach rock bottom in terms of writing. I'd beg to differ - I think you're overestimating the development of love and the limits or disbelief-suspension. There is "reckless", there is "irrational"... and then there is "totally senseless" - and when you're working off a PRE-ESTABLISHED relationship that was pretty much built on slow growth and gradual trust, it's even more stark a jarring change to not only reverse the direction of it to "face-paced" but take it to an extreme of "talking about kids only a week or so after we first see them kiss". I remember - it just has no bearing on what I said since, again, it's pre-established as having been a relationship that had mutual caring established between two generally good-natured people who's bond was more slowly paced... then took a turn into dialouge that even people who see both sides found it contrived and unrealistic. That's quite a bit different from what you're bringing up - hell, I'd actually say it's so opposite an example to what I'm saying that YOUR example is trying to "generalize" love more then anything I've said . (sorry if that's rude - my point though is that I disagree and say the romance isn't actually in touch with reality, if only because there is no justification seen for the abrupt tonal shift it took) Likewise, my point is that, for a lot of people, it was BAD setup/establishment, and even he went out of the way to state he "didn't consider it a real romance" - like it was just something to be pushed out of the way. The thing is though that nobody was really asking it be ignored - just that they wished it was handled better (also, I disagree - the crew was pushing it and joking about it long before it even happened, so you could actually keep all the crew reactions and just chalk it up to it being their assumptions. The only ones you'd really need to change are Kayto and Chigara's and then the dialouge between Chigara and Asaga before the Battle of Cera. And that in and of itself is assumptive - in my experience; anything can work if it's executed right, the same as how LD's current story could have worked if it had been executed better). Maybe, but at the same time it really wasn't done well enough to feel justified for a lot of people; that it was simply too forced and contrived to feel like anything that comes of it will be GOOD, or at least until V2.00 came out. And at the same time... I again disagree, because in the end it quite possibly was never truly about love either way for Kayto as opposed to a desire to be accepted by someone as "Kayto Shields" instead of "the captain", which then became a near-physical dependence on never losing that one person who would accept and forgive him no matter what. Considering that the story arguably only needed Kayto to "love Chigara as an emotional center for the duration of LibDay", it really doesn't seem like the sexual relationship was required for anything else but fanservice, especially since it's so contrived that, like Somasam said, you'd practically have to flat-out acknowledge in-universe how forcibly fast-paced it was and make it a focus to explore why it went the way it did to try and get past it at this point.
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Post by Somasam on Mar 20, 2016 0:07:28 GMT -8
"(why does Kayto get to be featured as the only one majorly traumatized anyway), etc. " I think this is primarily because Kayto is our lens into the story. Regardless if we see him as our surrogate, or as his own character; Kayto is the protagonist and the tale of sunrider is primarily told through his prospective. (Though this might've lessened somewhat in Liberation Day, as we've had a lot more scenes that don't directly involve kayto take place.) So it makes sense to me that the majority of the mental impacts have only been for Kayto's perspective. Too be fair though, we have seen quite a bit of hints at either surface or underling mental trauma and hardships for just about every character. - Asaga, much more in Libday than the other chapters, has had a lot more put on her shoulders due to her being the queen of a planet and her nature as a sharr, which compounds with her own personal view of herself having to be the hero and do what's right. She's suffered lots of jealousy, betrayal, and other nasty emotions due to Kayto's and Chigara's relationship as well.
- Icari also has a lot of baggage. Of course, most of this is old and she has managed to deal with it in one way or another, and largely put it behind her. However, there is still probably some loose ends that will really harm her if she lets them. Such as the eventual return of the commander that killed her parents right in front of her.
- Ava of course has mentioned multiple times that she has her own feelings and reservations with what happened to Cera. While she has been largely keeping it away from kayto due to her professional nature, its still obviously there and will make an impact. There is also the trauma that might've occured if you chose to send her to activate the vanguard cannon to kill the legion, like I did. That certainly made her interaction at the beginning more interesting.
- Sola basically made herself emotionless to deal with all that was going on in her time. If her stoicism starts to crack and she actually starts to recognize her emotions again, that is going to be very interesting. Going from little to no emotion and simply doing what your told - to starting to care about your emotions and the people around her might be too much for her, not only causing her to deal with stuff she is unfamiliar with, but also possibly having to deal with a lot of past baggage retroactively.
- Kryska has just had her naive outlook and love of everything alliance horribly shattered. Only going to get worse when she tries to go back to the people she trusts and finds out that they aren't as great as she thinks.
- Claude is Claude, so who the hell knows. Cosette has a TON of trauma, both physical and mental, that we've already seen, and that is probably not even the tip of the iceberg. And Chigara died and is now a yandere hivemind, so that will be something to see.
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Post by planguy on Mar 20, 2016 0:19:58 GMT -8
In universe I don't think it's fair to put the blame solely on Kayto for his relationship with Chigara, removing her agency. Seems more likely that Chigara would be the one taking advantage of her captains emotional vulnerability. Consciously or subconsciously. More likely they were using each other, Kayto needing an emotional support and Chigara desperate to form a connection with the man she was infatuated with.
But again this should have been something the player had input on. Considering what is being done with her character what has happened seems like a nice first step in Chigara's route. On the common route it just adds too much baggage.
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Post by vaendryl on Mar 20, 2016 1:07:38 GMT -8
However, I feel that if the idea of "the romance being shit cause it was" was actually expressed in story to a greater extent, then it would've probably helped a lot of people get over the whole thing. Again, I am bad at reading people and prefer if they just tell me what they think straight to my face; but if it had been directly stated in story that the whole 'romance' was just a ruse to control Kayto by the prototypes, I feel it would've justified the very fast pace and some of the decisions made by Chigara and Kayto in their romance arc. What I thought was cool was that Ava and especially Asaga had been saying precisely that and quite vehemently too. At face value Asaga was going around doing her super-jealous-mode act but it turns out she was completely right about it all. Something that was later emphasized in the V2.0 content. Claude speaking to Alpha: "Somehow, the Queen of Ryuvia could sense Chigara's hyper brain waves!" "It must have been maddening for the girl, being the only one to know the entire time that Chigara was a prototype..." "Trying to desperately tell everyone what was happening... Only to be ignored and dismissed at every turn." Ava complained a lot too, and was also very critical of their relationship. for various reasons. In the end though, Chigara also managed to gain her trust and 'allowed' Shields and her to have some 'alone time', knowing full well what they were doing. She ended up overtly regretting this (and more) and apologizing for it in V2.0 stuff.
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Post by Blackhead on Mar 20, 2016 1:44:36 GMT -8
I'd beg to differ - I think you're overestimating the development of love and the limits or disbelief-suspension. There is "reckless", there is "irrational"... and then there is "totally senseless" - and when you're working off a PRE-ESTABLISHED relationship that was pretty much built on slow growth and gradual trust, it's even more stark a jarring change to not only reverse the direction of it to "face-paced" but take it to an extreme of "talking about kids only a week or so after we first see them kiss". I remember - it just has no bearing on what I said since, again, it's pre-established as having been a relationship that had mutual caring established between two generally good-natured people who's bond was more slowly paced... then took a turn into dialouge that even people who see both sides found it contrived and unrealistic. That's quite a bit different from what you're bringing up - hell, I'd actually say it's so opposite an example to what I'm saying that YOUR example is trying to "generalize" love more then anything I've said . (sorry if that's rude - my point though is that I disagree and say the romance isn't actually in touch with reality, if only because there is no justification seen for the abrupt tonal shift it took) Likewise, my point is that, for a lot of people, it was BAD setup/establishment, and even he went out of the way to state he "didn't consider it a real romance" - like it was just something to be pushed out of the way. The thing is though that nobody was really asking it be ignored - just that they wished it was handled better (also, I disagree - the crew was pushing it and joking about it long before it even happened, so you could actually keep all the crew reactions and just chalk it up to it being their assumptions. The only ones you'd really need to change are Kayto and Chigara's and then the dialouge between Chigara and Asaga before the Battle of Cera. And that in and of itself is assumptive - in my experience; anything can work if it's executed right, the same as how LD's current story could have worked if it had been executed better). Maybe, but at the same time it really wasn't done well enough to feel justified for a lot of people; that it was simply too forced and contrived to feel like anything that comes of it will be GOOD, or at least until V2.00 came out. And at the same time... I again disagree, because in the end it quite possibly was never truly about love either way for Kayto as opposed to a desire to be accepted by someone as "Kayto Shields" instead of "the captain", which then became a near-physical dependence on never losing that one person who would accept and forgive him no matter what. Considering that the story arguably only needed Kayto to "love Chigara as an emotional center for the duration of LibDay", it really doesn't seem like the sexual relationship was required for anything else but fanservice, especially since it's so contrived that, like Somasam said, you'd practically have to flat-out acknowledge in-universe how forcibly fast-paced it was and make it a focus to explore why it went the way it did to try and get past it at this point. Hm. You somehow managed to put my example in wrong context and misinterpreted the core statement. Nice. - Next thing on "and when you're working off a PRE-ESTABLISHED relationship that was pretty much built on slow growth and gradual trust, it's even more stark a jarring change to not only reverse the direction of it to "face-paced" but take it to an extreme of "talking about kids only a week or so after we first see them kiss" Instead of answering, I'll rather ask you something: Is character and relationship development a damn constant or what? Or is it too far fetched to assume there are various (inter alia external) factors that play part too... - If he says "didn't consider it a real romance" that doesn't necessarily mean that he pushes it aside, in the sense of saying that it was unnecessary/insignificant or that he doesn't stand behind his choice. He simply wanted to point out that THIS romance is not final. He is not implying that he'll never build upon this concept. - I never claimed the establishment was good. - Last part makes zero sense, what you're describing IS LOVE. definition, love: a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person. You're listing REASONS for Kayto's affection towards Chigara. You're describing the KIND of love they have.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 20, 2016 2:25:06 GMT -8
I'd beg to differ - I think you're overestimating the development of love and the limits or disbelief-suspension. There is "reckless", there is "irrational"... and then there is "totally senseless" - and when you're working off a PRE-ESTABLISHED relationship that was pretty much built on slow growth and gradual trust, it's even more stark a jarring change to not only reverse the direction of it to "face-paced" but take it to an extreme of "talking about kids only a week or so after we first see them kiss". I remember - it just has no bearing on what I said since, again, it's pre-established as having been a relationship that had mutual caring established between two generally good-natured people who's bond was more slowly paced... then took a turn into dialouge that even people who see both sides found it contrived and unrealistic. That's quite a bit different from what you're bringing up - hell, I'd actually say it's so opposite an example to what I'm saying that YOUR example is trying to "generalize" love more then anything I've said . (sorry if that's rude - my point though is that I disagree and say the romance isn't actually in touch with reality, if only because there is no justification seen for the abrupt tonal shift it took) Likewise, my point is that, for a lot of people, it was BAD setup/establishment, and even he went out of the way to state he "didn't consider it a real romance" - like it was just something to be pushed out of the way. The thing is though that nobody was really asking it be ignored - just that they wished it was handled better (also, I disagree - the crew was pushing it and joking about it long before it even happened, so you could actually keep all the crew reactions and just chalk it up to it being their assumptions. The only ones you'd really need to change are Kayto and Chigara's and then the dialouge between Chigara and Asaga before the Battle of Cera. And that in and of itself is assumptive - in my experience; anything can work if it's executed right, the same as how LD's current story could have worked if it had been executed better). Maybe, but at the same time it really wasn't done well enough to feel justified for a lot of people; that it was simply too forced and contrived to feel like anything that comes of it will be GOOD, or at least until V2.00 came out. And at the same time... I again disagree, because in the end it quite possibly was never truly about love either way for Kayto as opposed to a desire to be accepted by someone as "Kayto Shields" instead of "the captain", which then became a near-physical dependence on never losing that one person who would accept and forgive him no matter what. Considering that the story arguably only needed Kayto to "love Chigara as an emotional center for the duration of LibDay", it really doesn't seem like the sexual relationship was required for anything else but fanservice, especially since it's so contrived that, like Somasam said, you'd practically have to flat-out acknowledge in-universe how forcibly fast-paced it was and make it a focus to explore why it went the way it did to try and get past it at this point. Hm. You somehow managed to put my example in wrong context and misinterpreted the core statement. Nice. - Next thing on "and when you're working off a PRE-ESTABLISHED relationship that was pretty much built on slow growth and gradual trust, it's even more stark a jarring change to not only reverse the direction of it to "face-paced" but take it to an extreme of "talking about kids only a week or so after we first see them kiss" Instead of answering, I'll rather ask you something: Is character and relationship development a damn constant or what? Or is it too far fetched to assume there are various (inter alia external) factors that play part too... - If he says "didn't consider it a real romance" that doesn't necessarily mean that he pushes it aside, in the sense of saying that it was unnecessary/insignificant or that he doesn't stand behind his choice. He simply wanted to point out that THIS romance is not final. He is not implying that he'll never build upon this concept. - I never claimed the establishment was good. - Last part makes zero sense, what you're describing IS LOVE. definition, love: a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person. You're listing REASONS for Kayto's affection towards Chigara. You're describing the KIND of love they have. Um... I actually think that's you who did that, not me. - But that doesn't work because of one big flaw in that question of yours; doesn't there need to BE various ("inter alia external") factors SHOWN for that relationship to change an not be "a damn constant"? Factors that, due to the shortness of the overall story, we really saw none of - or at least none that could justify the abrupt tonal shift in the speed Chigara and Kayto's relationship developed at. It really looks like it just jumped from what happened at the end of MoA to "obsessive dependence" - had there been more time to show the steps this happened through, you'd have a point. But in lack of that, well... it'd be like if all you knew of your friend's romance was "starting point" and "current point" without any of the other contexts ever being shown, much less touched upon - would it still make any kind of sense to you, let alone the casual onlooker? - That's pretty much THE SAME THING as saying "this isn't a real romance" - that Chigara was basically ruined for people who both did or didn't want her in a way that wasn't even realistic. For a lot of people, it felt like Chigara's whole character and the option of romance with her was gutted for a forced plot, and not even one done well enough to justify it - especially since the Chigara after this is most certainly not going to be the same one liked by the people who did vote for her. - It was defined by many as being bad establishment purely because it was seen as unrealistic for the characters and situations they were in. You're arguing otherwise - that it was realistic for the situation. So forgive me if I don't see where you made that distinction. - Right definition, wrong idea; that may be love, but those definitions aren't in fact exclusive to being romantic or platonic. I am listing reasons toward Kayto's affection toward Chigara - and none of really them require a sexual relationship to get across. It's literally the thing I've argued about ad nausium, so I really don't know how it would sound any different this time.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 20, 2016 2:47:27 GMT -8
Very nice discussion. All in all, my feelings are more on vaendryll's side, the extremely rushed romance did make sense even if it wasn't good per se. The proof for me is precisely how the Captain's relationship with Chigara shifted from going very slow to going very fast. In MoA and the beginning of Liberation day she was simply going for tea, helping the captain, etc. Even if she had feelings from months ago, it wasn't until kissing that things started picking up, and it was both because the captain desperately wanted to make a family and because Chigara allowed it in order to please him. If you take the "rushing" part then things start to fall apart as the romance starts being more similar to a normal and good one.
Of course, it could have been executed better, the reason and timing for sex was terrible (though a week after starting going out is definitely normal on most relationships of 20+ people, it's more that the situation definitely wasn't suitable and the exact motivations very shaky), etc. But, while I would have probably done the dialogue different, the feeling of a "rushed" and "too perfect" relationship is kinda the point. More development would have been better and make things make more sense as an "irrational and foolish love", but the pacing itself of the relation and the ultrasacharine words would probably have to stay.
Now, that does not mean it was not boring or bad; the mistake of Lib Day was not exactly this entire plot point, but relying only on this plot point. A plot point can be purposely bad in order to improve or set a future development, but what can't that game/book/VN/whatever expect is to focus exactly on that point. That's where Liberation Day's plot falls apart.
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Post by Blackhead on Mar 20, 2016 3:46:48 GMT -8
Um... I actually think that's you who did that, not me. - But that doesn't work because of one big flaw in that question of yours; doesn't there need to BE various ("inter alia external") factors SHOWN for that relationship to change an not be "a damn constant"? Factors that, due to the shortness of the overall story, we really saw none of - or at least none that could justify the abrupt tonal shift in the speed Chigara and Kayto's relationship developed at. It really looks like it just jumped from what happened at the end of MoA to "obsessive dependence" - had there been more time to show the steps this happened through, you'd have a point. But in lack of that, well... it'd be like if all you knew of your friend's romance was "starting point" and "current point" without any of the other contexts ever being shown, much less touched upon - would it still make any kind of sense to you, let alone the casual onlooker? - That's pretty much THE SAME THING as saying "this isn't a real romance" - that Chigara was basically ruined for people who both did or didn't want her in a way that wasn't even realistic. For a lot of people, it felt like Chigara's whole character and the option of romance with her was gutted for a forced plot, and not even one done well enough to justify it - especially since the Chigara after this is most certainly not going to be the same one liked by the people who did vote for her. - It was defined by many as being bad establishment purely because it was seen as unrealistic for the characters and situations they were in. You're arguing otherwise - that it was realistic for the situation. So forgive me if I don't see where you made that distinction. - Right definition, wrong idea; that may be love, but those definitions aren't in fact exclusive to being romantic or platonic. I am listing reasons toward Kayto's affection toward Chigara - and none of really them require a sexual relationship to get across. It's literally the thing I've argued about ad nausium, so I really don't know how it would sound any different this time. Okay, I'll try one last time to explain my standpoint and I hope we finally get this sorted out. This whole time I was trying to provide a more liberal point of view, showcasing HOW you could interpret things differently and WHY developers could have done things, the way they were done. (intention original post) Not only mentioning all negatives of forced romance, but also the few advantages it brought in. (for ex. creating a potentially interesting setup) "It was defined by many as being bad establishment purely because it was seen as unrealistic for the characters and situations they were in. You're arguing otherwise - that it was realistic for the situation." Finally, you got that right. I did not always represent my own opinion. For example first statement from my side: external factors do matter. Your reaction: "But that doesn't work because of one big flaw in that question of yours; doesn't there need to BE various ("inter alia external") factors SHOWN...." Only because you don't see or don't acknowledge something to be important enough to make a difference, that's your subjective opinion and shouldn't be taken for granted. It's your style of entitled argumentation that leads every corversation to spin in circles. You do this every time, and that's the reason I thought of you as a troll originally. I couldn't believe that someone would completely disregard every viable objection from anyone and blatantly talk the same stuff until people just give up. I'm not willing to have further discussions under these circumstances. Too annoying - not worth it.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 20, 2016 10:03:15 GMT -8
Very nice discussion. All in all, my feelings are more on vaendryll's side, the extremely rushed romance did make sense even if it wasn't good per se. The proof for me is precisely how the Captain's relationship with Chigara shifted from going very slow to going very fast. In MoA and the beginning of Liberation day she was simply going for tea, helping the captain, etc. Even if she had feelings from months ago, it wasn't until kissing that things started picking up, and it was both because the captain desperately wanted to make a family and because Chigara allowed it in order to please him. If you take the "rushing" part then things start to fall apart as the romance starts being more similar to a normal and good one. Of course, it could have been executed better, the reason and timing for sex was terrible (though a week after starting going out is definitely normal on most relationships of 20+ people, it's more that the situation definitely wasn't suitable and the exact motivations very shaky), etc. But, while I would have probably done the dialogue different, the feeling of a "rushed" and "too perfect" relationship is kinda the point. More development would have been better and make things make more sense as an "irrational and foolish love", but the pacing itself of the relation and the ultrasacharine words would probably have to stay. Now, that does not mean it was not boring or bad; the mistake of Lib Day was not exactly this entire plot point, but relying only on this plot point. A plot point can be purposely bad in order to improve or set a future development, but what can't that game/book/VN/whatever expect is to focus exactly on that point. That's where Liberation Day's plot falls apart. Thing is though that I think there's really nothing that was shown in LibDay to make vaen's "side" seem solid. Tonal shifts like that tend to require there be some solid element(s) that illustrate why things suddenly shifted to high-gear like that, and LibDay simply never showed any - in fact the only element there ever was had been Kayto's breakdown, which was not only in an entirely different game (MoA) on it's own could only go as far as being the justification to start something, not take it to the Nth degree of extreme.
Plus, in my experience, jumping to sex one week after going out is the mark of CASUAL relationships with people who are either every much previously experienced in relationships (which is not really applicable to either Kayto or Chigara) or in all honesty, very easy on the level of Claude - hell, I even took a sociology class that exposited on this and most starting relationships apparently take at least a month at the fastest before people even have sex; time to allow for a few dates to see how things are going and if they wouldn't be making a mistake, ect. Go figure, but a person's body isn't exactly something most people are really willing to just hand out in a week - there are precedents of course, but LibDay simply didn't have enough story to make it work/feel believable. Saying "it can happen!" but not having the situation needed for it to feel like it would or even make sense makes it moot. And that was my point - the "ultrasachrine" words would not just have been better but might actually even have WORKED had it been a longer-developed relationship.
So about the most we agree on was that the game's biggest narrative mistake was relying on this plot-point as the driving force of its story.
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Post by worstwaifu on Mar 20, 2016 10:08:52 GMT -8
I really just hope that this game is a learning experience for the design team. More focus on the writing really might help out in the future.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 20, 2016 10:19:05 GMT -8
Um... I actually think that's you who did that, not me. - But that doesn't work because of one big flaw in that question of yours; doesn't there need to BE various ("inter alia external") factors SHOWN for that relationship to change an not be "a damn constant"? Factors that, due to the shortness of the overall story, we really saw none of - or at least none that could justify the abrupt tonal shift in the speed Chigara and Kayto's relationship developed at. It really looks like it just jumped from what happened at the end of MoA to "obsessive dependence" - had there been more time to show the steps this happened through, you'd have a point. But in lack of that, well... it'd be like if all you knew of your friend's romance was "starting point" and "current point" without any of the other contexts ever being shown, much less touched upon - would it still make any kind of sense to you, let alone the casual onlooker? - That's pretty much THE SAME THING as saying "this isn't a real romance" - that Chigara was basically ruined for people who both did or didn't want her in a way that wasn't even realistic. For a lot of people, it felt like Chigara's whole character and the option of romance with her was gutted for a forced plot, and not even one done well enough to justify it - especially since the Chigara after this is most certainly not going to be the same one liked by the people who did vote for her. - It was defined by many as being bad establishment purely because it was seen as unrealistic for the characters and situations they were in. You're arguing otherwise - that it was realistic for the situation. So forgive me if I don't see where you made that distinction. - Right definition, wrong idea; that may be love, but those definitions aren't in fact exclusive to being romantic or platonic. I am listing reasons toward Kayto's affection toward Chigara - and none of really them require a sexual relationship to get across. It's literally the thing I've argued about ad nausium, so I really don't know how it would sound any different this time. Okay, I'll try one last time to explain my standpoint and I hope we finally get this sorted out. This whole time I was trying to provide a more liberal point of view, showcasing HOW you could interpret things differently and WHY developers could have done things, the way they were done. (intention original post) Not only mentioning all negatives of forced romance, but also the few advantages it brought in. (for ex. creating a potentially interesting setup) "It was defined by many as being bad establishment purely because it was seen as unrealistic for the characters and situations they were in. You're arguing otherwise - that it was realistic for the situation." Finally, you got that right. I did not always represent my own opinion. For example first statement from my side: external factors do matter. Your reaction: "But that doesn't work because of one big flaw in that question of yours; doesn't there need to BE various ("inter alia external") factors SHOWN...." Only because you don't see or don't acknowledge something to be important enough to make a difference, that's your subjective opinion and shouldn't be taken for granted. It's your style of entitled argumentation that leads every corversation to spin in circles. You do this every time, and that's the reason I thought of you as a troll originally. I couldn't believe that someone would completely disregard every viable objection from anyone and blatantly talk the same stuff until people just give up. I'm not willing to have further discussions under these circumstances. Too annoying - not worth it. No - I think the issue here is that you think I'm disagreeing because I somehow don't get it. Fact of the matter is I do - I simply don't agree with it, plain and simple. Mainly because that view of yours doesn't answer my question about how the story really seems to lack the contexts NEEDED to interpret it differently from what it was before. You seem to think the advantages offered are substantial - I do not because prerequisite contexts needed for them to exist just don't seem to be there.
And the reason I believe that comes down to another question; what else besides Kayto's breakdown in MoA was definitively regarded as a major contributing factor in the hyper-speed escalation of their relationship? The Prototype debate and refusing to acknowledge Chigara was part of it certainly plays in (or should), but it never really directly tied into it - if it had been cited as being a direct contributor in Kayto pushing things out of a need to prove to himself and Chigara that she was her own person, you'd have had a point. See, it's not that I'M not acknowledging it - it's that LibDay's story itself doesn't (or doesn't do a good enough job to) acknowledge there being any of the necessary trigger-points to explain this relationship's hyper-increased speed; there's nothing for me to acknowledge because the game doesn't really give much of anything for me to do so outside of pure speculation. I personally can think of reasons that would take a romance down this route (if not with different dialouge) and I never said you were wrong that relationships like this were possible - but near as I can tell, no such reasons to justify the rushed and forced nature are really shown in the narrative of the game itself; ATM it's all speculation just because "it's possible".
So again, fact of the matter - I'm not disregarding it at all. I just plain disagree with it. And what makes it funny is that I never even said you were flat-out wrong/that what you're saying wasn't possible; just that there wasn't enough in LibDay's story to justify/prove it, and that this lack of grounding was what made the romance a fail for so many. Saying "but it is possible!" over and over when the story itself doesn't really showcase the "what, where, when, how and why"/any directly-inferred contributing factors (or even really hint they exist) well enough to believe the pacing makes your argument just as much a moot point; you still need to show how Point-A gets to Point-B. LibDay just really failed to do that for Kayto and Chigara - and while V2.00 certainly helped make what happened more believable in hindsight, it's currently up to future installments to show us the narrative "A to B" for that romance that LibDay didn't exposit on and make it believable.
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Post by planguy on Mar 20, 2016 12:49:14 GMT -8
Very nice discussion. All in all, my feelings are more on vaendryll's side, the extremely rushed romance did make sense even if it wasn't good per se. The proof for me is precisely how the Captain's relationship with Chigara shifted from going very slow to going very fast. In MoA and the beginning of Liberation day she was simply going for tea, helping the captain, etc. Even if she had feelings from months ago, it wasn't until kissing that things started picking up, and it was both because the captain desperately wanted to make a family and because Chigara allowed it in order to please him. If you take the "rushing" part then things start to fall apart as the romance starts being more similar to a normal and good one. Of course, it could have been executed better, the reason and timing for sex was terrible (though a week after starting going out is definitely normal on most relationships of 20+ people, it's more that the situation definitely wasn't suitable and the exact motivations very shaky), etc. But, while I would have probably done the dialogue different, the feeling of a "rushed" and "too perfect" relationship is kinda the point. More development would have been better and make things make more sense as an "irrational and foolish love", but the pacing itself of the relation and the ultrasacharine words would probably have to stay. Now, that does not mean it was not boring or bad; the mistake of Lib Day was not exactly this entire plot point, but relying only on this plot point. A plot point can be purposely bad in order to improve or set a future development, but what can't that game/book/VN/whatever expect is to focus exactly on that point. That's where Liberation Day's plot falls apart.So your side is effectively "This terrible thing was supposed to be terrible?" See, that reasoning for why this is acceptable I disagree with. Chigara's relationship with Kayto being poorly thought out on purpose doesn't change the fact that it should have been an option. It would be like in Mass Effect 1 you were forced into a romantic relationship with Ashley in order to make Virmire more dramatic, and on Virmire you weren't allowed the choice of who to save. You could have had the games core events play out, with the characters in the same spots while still giving the player character actual choices and agency. And if a "Romantic false lead" was necessary for Kayto's character growth it could have been interesting to have the "Romantic false lead" be a player choice.
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Post by marioo on Mar 20, 2016 14:39:44 GMT -8
Before writing my thoughts about how a new romance could happen (or the old one continue if that is even remotely possible) here's my opinion on the "forced" romance. I don't really mind the forced romance, neither do I completely hate the way it was done in Liberation Day (although maybe I'm biased because I would have gone after Chigara anyway) even though it's far from perfect. As example, I agree that the whole story could have worked with making the romance optional with only few things changed. Instead of a romance it could have been some kind of very close platonic friendship: The only things affected by the romance are the way how Shields handles the whole Chigara/Prototype problem, Asagas Jealousy and the kissing-Chigara-back-to-her-sense scene.
-The Captain not believing that Chigara could be a prototype is obvious, he is kind of naive after all. -Asaga being jealous and thus even more suspicious about Chigara is simple, too. Even without a romance Chigara would be the person being closest to Shields, drinking tea with him all alone and knowing his deepest secrets. People get jealous for less. -The kiss-the-girl-back-to-her-senses thing is a problematic one. But I'd say there could have been alternatives to it: either a very good speech - everyone who played Mass Effect and remembers how many people Shepard talked into suicide knows what words can do. Or just skip her last moments and any last words by her. Fontana shoots her anyway.
Why I think that the way it was handled is understandable, but also a bit of critique: We have to think about in what kind of situation Shields is. He isn't the big damn hero. He's a broken person, he lost everything he loved and making new friends doesn't suddenly bring everything back. Why did it have to be Chigara that comforts Shields? That's a question a lot of people ask because they don't like her. My answer would be because she's the most caring person among the crew. Everyone sees that Shields looks lonely and worries about him, but she is the only person to do something about it and talk with him in private. How many other crew members went to talk to him, instead of vise versa? Except for professional stuff and threatening him, that is.
She's the only person giving him emotional comfort. She's the only person giving him a perspective of what to do in the future, whom he could have a new family with. I know a few people argue that he doesn't needs family, he's got his crew. But crew isn't family. We see what happened once their mission is over, which the Captain would be able to predict. Asaga and Sola leave immediately to rebuild Ryuvia, Krysta would most likely go back to the Alliance, Claude would to Claude-stuff, Ikari start her cat-cafee somewhere (or become a mercenary again), and Ava will do her own thing just the way she did after high school.
The relationship definitely went too fast from a first kiss to sex, though. While a week or just a few days between a first kiss and sex isn't too strange in many relationships, it seems odd for a character like Chigara. Even though she has her fantasy of a bunch of mini-captains and is under a lot of emotional pressure (her being accussed of being a traitor and the fear of Asaga not being her friend anymore), I think more time between the two events would have been much better. At least one more scene of them getting to know each other better and a few months of ingame-time would have been more appropriate.
So I think while the idea (Chigara being the person closest to Shields) behind it was quite good, the execution (rushing the romance) wasn't. Also I think the developers have to rethink about how much personality Kayto Shields has and how much we have to decide for him.
Why I think the situation has a lot of potential / potential conflict: There's obviously the question whether Shields really loved Chigara or if he just fell for the idea of having someone to comfort him. Does the later make him a good person? Hell, no. But this works both ways: did Chigara really love HIM? Or did she just fall for the idea of being needed and having the attention of someone? And there's also this possibility: Chigara being a traitor after all, that she willfully worked for the prototypes and faked the whole relationship but actually fell for the Captain at some point.
Shields has a few things he could do: If he didn't really love Chigara the first the he has to do is acknowledge that rushing into a relationship was wrong. And if he ever meets Chigara again he has to try and convince her that she rushed into it, too. Otherwise he would look like an ass. And get killed by ghost-Chigara. For even more conflict there should - as a result of the worst combination of taken choices - be the possibility of Chigara loving the Captain but him just getting over her (emotionally!) And if he really loved her he's not going to just forget about Fontana. I once heard someone joking about the "destory the legion"-choice in MoA as Shields going "full Ahab". But I think that he became a kind of Ahab from the moment the Legion destroyed his home-city. Even though having someone to comfort him gave him a moment of peace, now he lost everything he loved again. He won't just forgive Fontana this time. If we think about it, chances are good that he even was on the Legion when it attacked Cera. So will Shields go the same way as that famous captain and die in the attempt to avenge Chigara or will he stay focused on his goal to free Cera?
Regarding on how a new romance could work: Obviously it would need a lot of time. He can't rush into a new romance again, he has to think about what happened. Luckily for him (and us), he's in the perfect situation to ponder about it. Since he's stuck on a remote planet he has plenty of time and maybe the stoic Sola will help him deal with his loss (no dirty thoughts!). She saw a lot of bad things and propably lost people she cared for, too. There's a reason she seems so emotionally distant, maybe she can teach him how to stay focused.
After that there are a lot of possibilities, since pretty much all the girls like him already. But it will be interesting how they'll deal with his past relationship with Chigara. The most interesting one will be Asaga who is also the most obvious one to love the Captain. She feels betrayed by her former best friend and is in an odd way happy that she is gone. I think even if Shields accepted that romancing Chigara was a mistake it would be hard to deal with the grudge Asaga has against her. So I'd say that the likelihood and kind of relationship / romance will depend on how the Captain deals with his past romance.
Just my few thoughts about the whole thing, I'm sorry for my bad english in a few parts. And that the whole post turned out longer than I expected it to.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 20, 2016 15:48:46 GMT -8
I don't mind dissenting opinions, nor I plan to really convince anyone, but on the concrete matter of sex;
We're talking about two adults above 20 years old (one of which with a reasonable amount of experience, and the other an specially engineered body with who knows what priorities) in an universe with barely religious influence and probably hundred of ways to fight both STDs and unwanted pregnancies. And while they went from kissing to sex in one week they knew each other for at least month, and you can probably even argue that their relationship was ambiguous since before the Legion. Ava and Kayto had their first kiss together just before having sex, of all things.
And really, it's kinda a given when in the previous situation scene they were already talking about kids and family. If you really want to slow down the whole relationship, no problem, everyone already said their point about it. However I find this fixation with sex a tad odd.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 20, 2016 16:06:53 GMT -8
I don't mind dissenting opinions, nor I plan to really convince anyone, but on the concrete matter of sex; We're talking about two adults above 20 years old (one of which with a reasonable amount of experience, and the other an specially engineered body with who knows what priorities) in an universe with barely religious influence and probably hundred of ways to fight both STDs and unwanted pregnancies. And while they went from kissing to sex in one week they knew each other for at least month, and you can probably even argue that their relationship was ambiguous since before the Legion. Ava and Kayto had their first kiss together just before having sex, of all things. And really, it's kinda a given when in the previous situation scene they were already talking about kids and family. If you really want to slow down the whole relationship, no problem, everyone already said their point about it. However I find this fixation with sex a tad odd. Well, yes, but Kayto doesn't in fact seem to have reasonable experience; the only actual relationship he ever seemed to be in, outside of (supposed) errant flirting with a bunch of girls in his youth, was with Ava - and look how that turned out. Plus, knowing someone for a month isn't the same as loving them for a month - unless you're fast and loose like Claude or had a very long time to develop it like Ava, it's an adjustment you need time to get used to or even be sure you want. And the crazy thing? It could have actually been mitigated somewhat had it been directly inferred that Kayto and Chigara started dating during the month in dry-dock instead of after - as it is, it seems like they only actually started a relationship with, if Chigara's words are any indication, her first kiss.
And.. OK, this is going to be a mini-rant and a half, but Ava and Kayto's first time is a very, very, VERY bad example to use - counterproductive, even; She was leaving and for all they knew would never see each-other again, they had years to know each-other and develop sexual tension, they both were young hormonal teenagers who'd yet to even understand what love really was and this was from a time before Kayto himself had started to change (aka - before he was player-determinable to an extent). None of these things apply to Kayto & Chigara's romance - in fact it kinda undermines it because it would point to Kayto having had opportunity to learn what the consequences of rash decisions with a girl can bring (aka - he joined the Cera Space Force purely because he on-the-spot decided he loved Ava and his life's pretty much been hell since then).
As for why people keep bringing it up - that requires a mini-tangent;
It's because it was far too blatant and quick for the situation and was not executed well - the way it happened between Kayto and Chigara felt extremely forced to the point that you could argue the sex-scene actually cheapened their relationship instead of strengthening it. And the fact that they were talking about kids and family that soon and BEFORE they had sex instead of after only highlights it worse because that talk is extremely out-of-place that soon in. It really does come across as saying "sex = love, no objections" - it takes everything in MoA and caps it in a rather shallow climax. It's fixated on because people felt that not only was it not needed and the story around it not executed in a way that made it work, but it was done in a way that made it feel utterly shoehorned for the sake of having a sex-scene - and that's the last thing you want a sex-scene to do unless you straight-up don't care about the story or characters. It's not odd at all - it's simply that people actually cared.
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Post by planguy on Mar 20, 2016 16:16:56 GMT -8
I don't mind dissenting opinions, nor I plan to really convince anyone, but on the concrete matter of sex; We're talking about two adults above 20 years old (one of which with a reasonable amount of experience, and the other an specially engineered body with who knows what priorities) in an universe with barely religious influence and probably hundred of ways to fight both STDs and unwanted pregnancies. And while they went from kissing to sex in one week they knew each other for at least month, and you can probably even argue that their relationship was ambiguous since before the Legion. Ava and Kayto had their first kiss together just before having sex, of all things. And really, it's kinda a given when in the previous situation scene they were already talking about kids and family. If you really want to slow down the whole relationship, no problem, everyone already said their point about it. However I find this fixation with sex a tad odd. I suppose it's useful to position your opponents as prudes, but I don't think the sex itself was a problem for people. People romantically involved have sex, sure. The problem is them being romantically involved.
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Post by saibotlieh on Mar 20, 2016 16:55:48 GMT -8
As far as we've seen, Kayto doesn't in fact have reasonable experience; the only actual relationship he ever seemed to be in was with Ava - and look how that turned out. (...) he joined the Cera Space Force purely because of Ava and his life's pretty much been hell since then. As far as I remember it is never mentioned how Kayto's life has been between the time Ava left high school and the start of the game, so I do not know if these points are really valid. He might in fact have had relationships during his time on the Space Force Academy and in fact also before Ava (she in fact mentions once or twice that he was pursuing various girls, but not how far he got with these relationships). While he is joining the Space Forces to meet up with Ava again originally, it is nowhere mentioned that he really holds this believe for the whole time or if it fades out over the 10 years (?) inbetween. His interest in Ava might have been reignited once he got to know that she will be his XO on the Sunrider. Again, just speculation.
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Post by worstwaifu on Mar 20, 2016 17:17:15 GMT -8
I cut on both sides of this argument. On one hand, people have sex fast with people they don't like. Kayto has known Chigara for like two months at this point, which is ages for twenty year olds. On the other hand, I see the point with holding back too.
Life's weird like that.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 20, 2016 17:35:53 GMT -8
As far as we've seen, Kayto doesn't in fact have reasonable experience; the only actual relationship he ever seemed to be in was with Ava - and look how that turned out. (...) he joined the Cera Space Force purely because of Ava and his life's pretty much been hell since then. As far as I remember it is never mentioned how Kayto's life has been between the time Ava left high school and the start of the game, so I do not know if these points are really valid. He might in fact have had relationships during his time on the Space Force Academy and in fact also before Ava (she in fact mentions once or twice that he was pursuing various girls, but not how far he got with these relationships). While he is joining the Space Forces to meet up with Ava again originally, it is nowhere mentioned that he really holds this believe for the whole time or if it fades out over the 10 years (?) inbetween. His interest in Ava might have been reignited once he got to know that she will be his XO on the Sunrider. Again, just speculation. Well, it's detailed that he went into the Space Force for Ava's sake and it seems more like and only just now gave it up after finally reaching her aboard the Sunrider and slowly deciding that maybe he ought to have let it go. It's never even so much as hinted that he'd pursued anyone else, either (in fact, spending years in the military - back when the Cera Space Force was still intact and there regs against it - would cement that). Also, I should point out that since it seems that Kayto and Ava were both virgins who had their first time together, it's hard to believe he ever got that far with anyone else prior to that - hell, even the shore-leave scene pointed more to Kayto's school crushes being rather one-sided. Additionally, I should point out the fact that Kayto as a whole was always portrayed as rather naive - he really does seem the type that would abstain from another relationship in the hope of at least finding out if the first one was salvageable, and the idea that it wasn't hit him so hard that it's arguably one of the biggest reasons he even ended up falling in so hard with Chigara in the first place (though the execution of that still lacked as that was practically the ONLY thing that there was to back it).
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Post by Blackhead on Mar 20, 2016 19:08:06 GMT -8
No - I think the issue here is that you think I'm disagreeing because I somehow don't get it. Fact of the matter is I do - I simply don't agree with it, plain and simple. Mainly because that view of yours doesn't answer my question about how the story really seems to lack the contexts NEEDED to interpret it differently from what it was before. You seem to think the advantages offered are substantial - I do not because prerequisite contexts needed for them to exist just don't seem to be there. And the reason I believe that comes down to another question; what else besides Kayto's breakdown in MoA was definitively regarded as a major contributing factor in the hyper-speed escalation of their relationship? The Prototype debate and refusing to acknowledge Chigara was part of it certainly plays in (or should), but it never really directly tied into it - if it had been cited as being a direct contributor in Kayto pushing things out of a need to prove to himself and Chigara that she was her own person, you'd have had a point. See, it's not that I'M not acknowledging it - it's that LibDay's story itself doesn't (or doesn't do a good enough job to) acknowledge there being any of the necessary trigger-points to explain this relationship's hyper-increased speed; there's nothing for me to acknowledge because the game doesn't really give much of anything for me to do so outside of pure speculation. I personally can think of reasons that would take a romance down this route (if not with different dialouge) and I never said you were wrong that relationships like this were possible - but near as I can tell, no such reasons to justify the rushed and forced nature are really shown in the narrative of the game itself; ATM it's all speculation just because "it's possible". So again, fact of the matter - I'm not disregarding it at all. I just plain disagree with it. And what makes it funny is that I never even said you were flat-out wrong/that what you're saying wasn't possible; just that there wasn't enough in LibDay's story to justify/prove it, and that this lack of grounding was what made the romance a fail for so many. Saying "but it is possible!" over and over when the story itself doesn't really showcase the "what, where, when, how and why"/any directly-inferred contributing factors (or even really hint they exist) well enough to believe the pacing makes your argument just as much a moot point; you still need to show how Point-A gets to Point-B. LibDay just really failed to do that for Kayto and Chigara - and while V2.00 certainly helped make what happened more believable in hindsight, it's currently up to future installments to show us the narrative "A to B" for that romance that LibDay didn't exposit on and make it believable. I don't think you're disagreeing because you somehow don't get it. I just dislike when people sell their personal opinion as the one and only univeral applicable panacea. I just wanted to open up people for different ideas. Summarizing why Chigara/Kayto's silly, rush relationship is justified or at least tolerable/somewhat believable. (Although sloppily written, bad implemented in overall plot, and indirectly harming the story with negative side effects.) - My first real life example: Love can be irrational, reckless and even harmful. (purpose: produce reference to reality, for love in general.) - Ava rejecting Shields, most prominently in Legion scene.(Quite possibly the reason why Shield's began to pursue Chigara in the first place.) - Shields Breakdown (functioning as catalyst for relationship.) - Chigara's ambition (They already shared a one sided relationship since the mid/beginning of FA. Affection from her side was a given from the very get go.) - Crewmember pushing the issue and encouraging Chigara/Kayto relationship. (hooking them up, for ex. beach scene.) I don't think that future installments even want to elaborate on Chigara/Shields relationship. The sole purpose of the forced romance was to create a conflict. And again: If Chigara/Shields weren't romantically involved we would have a DIFFERENT conflict for post-LibDay. We can't tell if whatever Samu has planned would work out with a different approach. We have to wait and see before judging possible effects in future games. Note: I personally still think the forced romance was horrible. (in regards of LibDay only) It created a static love triangle (my real problem with LibDays writing. Changing 1,2 lines to make a relationship appear to be platonic, won't terminate this atrocity. And in itself was the main reason for the story losing its focus.)
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Mar 20, 2016 21:09:50 GMT -8
No - I think the issue here is that you think I'm disagreeing because I somehow don't get it. Fact of the matter is I do - I simply don't agree with it, plain and simple. Mainly because that view of yours doesn't answer my question about how the story really seems to lack the contexts NEEDED to interpret it differently from what it was before. You seem to think the advantages offered are substantial - I do not because prerequisite contexts needed for them to exist just don't seem to be there. And the reason I believe that comes down to another question; what else besides Kayto's breakdown in MoA was definitively regarded as a major contributing factor in the hyper-speed escalation of their relationship? The Prototype debate and refusing to acknowledge Chigara was part of it certainly plays in (or should), but it never really directly tied into it - if it had been cited as being a direct contributor in Kayto pushing things out of a need to prove to himself and Chigara that she was her own person, you'd have had a point. See, it's not that I'M not acknowledging it - it's that LibDay's story itself doesn't (or doesn't do a good enough job to) acknowledge there being any of the necessary trigger-points to explain this relationship's hyper-increased speed; there's nothing for me to acknowledge because the game doesn't really give much of anything for me to do so outside of pure speculation. I personally can think of reasons that would take a romance down this route (if not with different dialouge) and I never said you were wrong that relationships like this were possible - but near as I can tell, no such reasons to justify the rushed and forced nature are really shown in the narrative of the game itself; ATM it's all speculation just because "it's possible". So again, fact of the matter - I'm not disregarding it at all. I just plain disagree with it. And what makes it funny is that I never even said you were flat-out wrong/that what you're saying wasn't possible; just that there wasn't enough in LibDay's story to justify/prove it, and that this lack of grounding was what made the romance a fail for so many. Saying "but it is possible!" over and over when the story itself doesn't really showcase the "what, where, when, how and why"/any directly-inferred contributing factors (or even really hint they exist) well enough to believe the pacing makes your argument just as much a moot point; you still need to show how Point-A gets to Point-B. LibDay just really failed to do that for Kayto and Chigara - and while V2.00 certainly helped make what happened more believable in hindsight, it's currently up to future installments to show us the narrative "A to B" for that romance that LibDay didn't exposit on and make it believable. I don't think you're disagreeing because you somehow don't get it. I just dislike when people sell their personal opinion as the one and only univeral applicable panacea. I just wanted to open up people for different ideas. Summarizing why Chigara/Kayto's silly, rush relationship is justified or at least tolerable/somewhat believable. (Although sloppily written, bad implemented in overall plot, and indirectly harming the story with negative side effects.) - My first real life example: Love can be irrational, reckless and even harmful. (purpose: produce reference to reality, for love in general.) - Ava rejecting Shields, most prominently in Legion scene.(Quite possibly the reason why Shield's began to pursue Chigara in the first place.) - Shields Breakdown (functioning as catalyst for relationship.) - Chigara's ambition (They already shared a one sided relationship since the mid/beginning of FA. Affection from her side was a given from the very get go.) - Crewmember pushing the issue and encouraging Chigara/Kayto relationship. (hooking them up, for ex. beach scene.) I don't think that future installments even want to elaborate on Chigara/Shields relationship. The sole purpose of the forced romance was to create a conflict. And again: If Chigara/Shields weren't romantically involved we would have a DIFFERENT conflict for post-LibDay. We can't tell if whatever Samu has planned would work out with a different approach. We have to wait and see before judging possible effects in future games. Note: I personally still think the forced romance was horrible. (in regards of LibDay only) It created a static love triangle (my real problem with LibDays writing. Changing 1,2 lines to make a relationship appear to be platonic, won't terminate this atrocity. And in itself was the main reason for the story losing its focus.) But that's just it - I NEVER DID say what you said was impossible or that it doesn't happen in the world; I said nothing done in LibDay's current story justified the speed of such a relationship/made it believable. How is that me trying to "sell (my) personal opinion as the one and only universal applicable panacea" when I flat-out never made such claims of being definitive?
The reason why people believe otherwise though is because the elements that usually bring this about - powerful triggers - are not visibly present in LibDay. In fact, the only substantial trigger (Ava rejecting Kayto which caused him to break down) was in MoA. Moreover, what really kills the idea for many though is, ironically, the precise timing - it would have made more sense had Chigara and Kayto actually started dating SOONER, having something like dinner or the like during the Sunrider's month in drydock instead of seemingly jumping into it with a sudden kiss scene the week of departure; why wait a whole month doing nothing and then do it all in one week? I'm not saying this kind of relationship can't happen - just that LibDay's setting really doesn't do enough to make it believable.
- Your first real life example: I's sorry, but really don't see how that counts since, from what you said, there was intentional manipulation in that as opposed to shared affection. It still needs triggers - "can happen" isn't the same as "will happen" and there still at least needs to be a way to see how it's happened because even unpredictable madness has a method to it. Yes what happened with Kayto and Chigara was "irrational, reckless and harmful", and yes it's possible, but for a lot of people, there's very little that actually supports it going down this path to make it feel tangible instead of shoehorned. - Ava rejecting Shields: This we agree on, but the problem is that I don't see any other clear-cut element beside this one that really serves as a flashpoint in catalyzing the relationship. And it alone can't justify the shotgun-wedding plans - Dating, yes. Kissing, yes. Even sex would be justifiable if it didn't happen till the very end. All of that, plus kids, living together and marriage, in a week? That broke suspension of disbelief for a lot of people. - Shield's Breakdown: We agree again, but I don't really see why this is a separate point - this and the above pretty much count as a single thing. - Chigara's ambition: The thing that makes me pause here though was that Chigara was never actually shown to have "ambition" as opposed to naiveté; a very simplistic idea of love - one that lead to her treating love as something childishly simple. - Crewmembers pushing the issue: That's more supporting the shy Chigara then something that would drive Kayto himself into the length he went to. It's not the kind of flashpoint element that would put the relationship on the fast-track like the rejection-based breakdown would.
The thing with that is that they may not have a choice but to elaborate on it - in fact, just by looking here, most people seem to agree that it'd be worse if it wasn't elaborated on, lest Kayto come across as a completely unrepentant dickhead for it if he just goes to someone else. And this is where we disagree again because I'm of the opposite belief - I do not in fact think Kayto and Chigara's romance was anything close to an "atrocity", though I think the way it was handled might have been. In truth, I really think the main reason for the loss of focus was simply because LibDay was short - they tried to cram too much into far too small a window and it made everything fall apart, and had it been developed over a longer time, it could possibly have worked. (please note I have not made any claims to this being anything but what I believe!)
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