|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Apr 14, 2016 19:16:37 GMT -8
Thanks truebeliever . Indeed that was the main point I wanted to avert; I know that Lib Day is a result of it's ending. I mean, duh, of course it is. But the objective of this thread is to focus only on the writing on a purely technical standpoint, refusing whys, hows or comparisons with both expectations and other products. My objective is not to focus on the reasons behind it or justify anything, but merely provide the feedback on writing that Samu-kun missed so much. So, of course I'll talk about the ending, I mean, I already did up there. But it's also given that I won't talk about how the ending was received or about how that influenced the rest of the work; I believe that lies beyond the scope of this thread. I don't think a works ending is off topic when discussing it from a technical standpoint. The ending can often offer context for the rest of the work that can drastically effect how that work is viewed. Likewise knowing that a work is but one part of a serial story can also change how we view that work. We admittedly enter into the realm of speculation but if an ending of a story that is a chapter in a longer story limits the direction that story can go in the future we can draw negative conclusions. In a game where part of the advertised appeal is the ability to have an effect on the story, with one of the most visible signs of this being who the protagonist ends up with romantically, and you are hampered by choices that you wouldn't have made you could draw the conclusion that the story is unsatisfactory. ... god, I wish I could sum up my points as well as you do.
|
|
|
Post by Marx-93 on May 3, 2016 15:04:28 GMT -8
So, I'm sorry everyone for the big delay. This month has been a combination of me being busy and simply lacking the energy to tackle some of the themes; unlike some of the basic themes before this ones are definitely more complex, and trying to tackle them in the most objective way possible (not that it is, because in writing nothing it is, but I've tried so that at least people can understand it) was hard. The fact that a lot of people here talked about it compelled me to touch a bit on "twists", which is probably the main cause of the delay, despite only managing to write about 2 pages of it. Well, that and that surprisingly REturn took a lot of wind out of my sails: I don't know if it was out of relief, cynicism or something else... As always, this review is thought specially for the case of Liberation Day's writing with the aim to help Samu-kun as feedback and aims to be nothing more. After this I'll also probably take a small rest (I suppose I'll return for REturn); in this thread I'm more or less finished and I'm busy with other things. If I don't answer is more likely than I don't have time than that I'm ignoring you. So, here it is in the spoiler below. I've also updated the first page if you want to read all in one sitting. Prose:
Liberation Day’s prose has always been extremely barebones and to the point. That’s something in common with the original, and it’s not something intrinsically bad or wrong, but more kind of like a style.
Such prose normally allows for a fast pacing and quick action. In Visual Novels furthermore the art and music can create the immersion and mood your prose is unable to make, so it can be quite effective even in more relaxed scenarios or ones with a lot of casual dialogue.
There is however a fairly big flaw, and that such prose normally falls flat when it tries anything abstract or to confront a great idea. It’s normal after all; barebone prose is basically made for quick action and constant movement, or casual dialogue. Scenes in which “what is happening” is a lot more important than the ideas of the characters or the mood of the scene.
However, the moment the feelings of one character are more important to the scene than the action, or the moment when a speech is more a declaration of ideals or of goals than of facts, is the moment when such style tends to struggle the most. It isn’t enough to say “he loved her”, or “she felt deep hate”; “show, don’t tell” has been the most crucial rule in anything with a script since the birth of modern media. You need to describe the scene, set the mood, and allow your prose to make the reader feel what is happening and not simply read it. Of course, art, sound, etcetera can also help a lot and make the job much more easier. However, when the feelings grows more complex or nuanced, a lot of times it’s not enough.
In MoA, the biggest emotional moment relied mainly in a flashback. Even then, though, the actual romance there is very simple and innocent. I in fact think the later is actually the point; showing the simplicity and innocence of days far gone. Even the promise of the Captain, arguably the “climax” of that emotional moment, is meant to come as childish and naive.
His feelings after Ongess are also connected to this flashback and his sister; basically redirecting a very complex issue into a far more simple guilt issue over failing to rescue his sister. Now, a lot of times simple is best; more straightforward feelings also tend to be the stronger ones after all, and are by nature far easier to sympathize with.
In Academy in general the character’s feeling also tend to be rather straightforward. After all, unlike in the main series, here they are high-school students and there’s no fate of the world at stake. There are some routes more dramatic than the others, and one even has some fairly important issues for the lore, but nothing much complicated. I would even argue that when the routes tried to go for a more nuanced storyline or feelings, they actually quite failed at it (*cough*Chigara route*cough*).
Now, Liberation Day. The main theme of the game is betrayal. However, the problem is that betrayal is very complex and ambiguous issue. The main thing about betrayal is not the fact itself, but rather the ambient of doubt that permeates everyone. The one that must make the player start doubting everyone, force him to think a lot on who trusts and why, make him paranoid about even silly things, etc. And that’s something you can’t get with only facts.
You can’t simply make one doubt on facts because then the facts itself point to that betrayal and there’s no tension; there’s simply a betrayer. What you have to do is create a scenario in which unconsciously the player starts doubting the other characters, not by simple facts, but rather the way those facts are presented. When you know there’s a betrayer, you may start doubting someone for silly things: Icari going to a bar may make you suspect she’s contacting people outside the Sunrider, Kryska reuniting with old comrades makes you think of her as an spy, even Ava’s obsession with paperwork can be transformed to a way to have all the information on the Sunrider at any moment.
But there’s basically 0 of that. It’s not even that it falls flat, is that there’s completely 0 of that. The betrayal theme is mostly presented through the love triangle, which basically transforms a complex and nuanced theme into a high-school romance. There’s actually a lot of potential in the original theme; after reading 2.0 and thinking a little, the conclusion some of us reached is that technically almost everyone betrayed someone in some way. That can be incredibly powerful, but it just isn't because there’s never really a feeling of betrayal, a tension or anything. The prose simply fails to make any of that; while I’m not proposing a change to a more purple prose or anything like that (Sunrider is simply not that), there’s the need to set a mood and filter what can be perfectly normal actions with a shade of suspicion. Some games are able to convey their theme through pure ambience (i.e. Dark Souls only tells its story and Lore through item descriptions, yet its theme is extremely clear through a combination of graphics, music and gameplay), and others do it through narrative. In the later however, you simply need a better prose if you want to make the player feel it and not simply see it. There’s a reason why horror games and thrillers are so hard to pull off nicely; more than plot you need execution. And execution in a Visual Novel means graphics, sound and, specially, prose. The former 2 aren’t bad, but don’t help a lot in this particular case, and Sunrider’s prose simply can’t create the mood or tension needed for a proper betrayal.
The theme of betrayal is more on there because it’s hammered by the trailer and the characters than by anything else. And that’s a big failure that cheapens it, and so overall cheapens the game.
Now, does that mean Sunrider simply can’t into more nuanced themes? That’s not exactly right either. Even with the current prose, Sunrider works with its more simpler themes; as said before, MoA effectively did manage to effectively redirect some more nuanced issues in a simpler way that made them more powerful. The characters (every one of them) lacked complexity, but still got development.
Another thing to note though is that this simply extends to scenes in which the ideas or feelings of the characters are a lot more important than the “what is happening”. Politics and battles are precisely the opposite, so through a very simple prose describing what is happening, you can actually inject a great amount of nuance and complexity; case in point being of course the situation at Ongess.
Another great example would be the book version of the “Legend of Galactic Heroes”. To put it simple, despite being a novel of 300 pages, the book is very, very sparse with its actual prose. While not as barebones, being a book after all, it could be said that its prose is to books what Sunrider’s prose is to VNs.
However, Legend of Galactic Heroes continues being a classic revered by its very nuanced depiction of politics, wars, and even history. The reason is that all of them are themes in which you can speak through facts, rather than feelings. Showing political machinations and its results, how entire wars and millions of casualties are engineered, how some cling to profit and power while arguing they do it for justice, etc. All of this are things in which the facts are the “show, don’t tell” part. In fact, a very barebones prose may even enhance the effect, adding a “historical documentary effect” in some parts, and making speeches sound empty no matter the argument.
So, in my opinion, Samu-kun should stick with his strengths; his prose simply isn’t good enough (as of now) to really makes us feel much complexity in an emotional sense, however fits well with more straightforward feelings. And he can add complexity on the political/economic/military/technical side, because that suits his strengths too.
As a final note, I would be cautious too when it comes to expressing ideas: while some can be very simple and straightforward, it’s very easy to get muddled up with the “higher” ideals and themes. Just like a story needs a crescendo to a climax, you also need to prepare these things; you don’t jump from holding hands to a declaration of eternal love, so you can’t jump from speaking of the weather to suddenly revealing your most inner ideals and philosophy, or speaking of theology. In the later case it will often sound either cheap or stupid regardless of the actual validity of what is said.
Example: I think Claude’s revelation showed that very well. The too simplistic way it was done simply didn't suit the idea of a higher being at all, and just makes the clash between that and the world more obvious (thus breaking immersion). Just making Sola make a small prelude would make everything a tad more palatable:
Sola: I believe she’s my kin, in a way. Yet she’s more far apart from me than I am from my age. She’s what every Ryuvian Emperor, from the first, to my father, to the ones that saw their empire ruined, dreamed to be. Someone to whom time is but a friend, in which she can freely come and go. Someone who sees the entire Universe as but a toy to play with…. In short, she is what I would call a god.
There, while the main idea is still kept, you’ve slowly introduced the reader to it instead of slapping him to the face with it. When you start thinking, the idea on the main plot it’s the same, but in context at least it sounds far less stupid. Sometimes a little dressing can help to express ideas (or hide its flaws) better; the important point is avoiding a clash so big it breaks immersion.
Captain’s feelings:
I believe the captain’s is one of the great victims to this overall lack of nuance; there’s basically no doubt nor grey area with his feelings. He goes from loving Ava enough to dedicate 10 years of his life to fulfilling a silly promise (and maybe even sparing the Legion) to drool when thinking of Chigara within a month.
There’s no reflection, no slow shift over time. Chigara had already established herself at the end of MoA as the Captain’s emotional support; the position was, in a way, perfect to slowly develop how, after Ava’s final rejection, Chigara slowly gains the captain’s heart. The problem is however that this process is seemingly skipped: there’s a time skip of one month so this happens entirely off-screen. Instead of an evolution we see a jump. This makes the romance seem more forced, as not only it feels like that from a “gameplay” point of view, but also from a purely narrative point of view. Yeah, all the pieces are there, but even if you have them you haven’t solved the puzzle. If you jump from showing all the pieces to the final result you aren’t solving it, you’re simply skipping steps.
Now, this doesn’t only handicaps the entire relationship and the Captain’s character, but also has even effect on the love triangle. As the most difficult part is already set in stone (the Captain liking Chigara) this basically condemns all development on that part as simply Asaga struggling against something against which she can’t do anything. There’s no dynamical relations nor any actual movement or action; she’s simply struggling against a series of feelings that are presented as facts after a time skip. Not only that, the earlier issue also creates a disconnect from the player to the love triangle itself: the player not only hasn’t decided it, but it can’t even understand the captain feelings. We can’t even feel guilty or that much sad for Asaga because we ourselves don’t understand what the captain is thinking. As I said before, the player feels like a spectator and not like one of the participants, and as nothing actually happens until Asaga’s betrayal there’s not even much to actually see. Just development for Asaga and the development itself is fine (if a tad cliché), but it can’t carry all the sections dedicated to it.
So, in summary, not only we have a problem with Chigara the waifuing machine but also in the captain feelings being completely underdeveloped and pushed along through jumps. This strains the narrative making the reader unattached to the romance itself, but also severely weakening the love triangle subplot as a collateral.
On the plus side: Ava’s feelings are fairly well depicted, though she definitely benefits from an overall slow arc instead of jumping around. Her small jealousy as her armour finally starts to melt is good, though overall it makes the Chigara romance feel even more forced. For example, if you sink the Legion, she and the captain have a fairly emotional talk that only makes the emotional jump from Ava to Chigara feel even weirder (specially as Ava’s armour starts to crack). I think perhaps a bigger “Ice Queen” time would have overall benefited the game: making her reject the captain again or something similar enough would have helped the “Chigara route” make more sense. This would also make the final resolution more meaningful and cathartic; right now it seems like a very simple “you don’t know what you have until you lose it”, and the little time dedicated to it makes it seem more like a small subplot than the resolution of half of MoA.
Voices:
Overall, I rather liked the Japanese voices. While I felt Chigara’s VA had to deal with 2 of the worst characters in the game (Chigara and Alice), how she voiced them while making them similar yet different was very nice. She also fit both very well. Asaga’s VA struggled a lot at the beginning, making what should be a dramatic moment seem like a joke (this is probably due to being her first lines, when the only thing she had of Asaga was her bio and her general character). As she keep going she improved, and by the end I had nothing but love for her. Ava’s VA also did a very fine job. Icari and Kryska were both good, though there were also a pair or two of silly mistakes (like some of Kryska’s shouts, which felt very weird, and Icari felt even more silly in her crying scene). The rest were fine, but nothing that enhanced the writing much (I did fanboy at some of Fontana’s lines, but that was more due to a combination of cheese, fabulousness and cool factor).
As a note, it also felt strange that some of the lines were rewritten in Japanese. A lot of times they were expanded for seemingly no reason (I suppose the line was too brief? As the Japanese VAs are paid by lines, there’s probably a thought there to maximize the voice per what’s paid?), the winner being Chigara’s line of reconstructing the Captain’s tea set. It like, changed from 3 lines to an extensive technobabble explanation. Also, Claude had like all of her lines filled with even more innuendos (if that was possible); it was a bit ridiculous.
Overall, nothing much of substance (but a bit of style). It did felt like some of it was just for the kick of it though.
In the end, the voices enhanced what they could, though it may detract from it if someone is not used to Japanese voice-overs. They are after all pretty typical, nothing groundbreaking or particularly impressive in either direction: not a huge factor in any way. Personally, I think a lot of the problems of Liberation Day would have been slightly lessened if Kayto had been voiced (thus, changing a lot of things to “Kayto is his own person” instead of simply “stealing agency and breaking immersion”), but I know some people hate MCs being voiced.
Misc:
In general, the text tends to feel a tad unpolished (this applies to all the Sunrider series in general; some typos, awkward expressions, overuse of infodumping and “as you already know”, etc). It’s not something I tend to emphasize, because I realize LiS is still basically a very indie dev in a very niche market and sadly it’s a standard in the VN marker (Sakura games this side, bad translations this other), but I feel it should at least be recognized. Normally numerous editing passes (and by someone different than the original write) are considered the minimum for any written work . While not reaching the standard for a while can be understood, it shouldn't be the modus operandi here. Typos that are only corrected just before the release even if they were spotted 5 months earlier, 0 rewriting on any scene, etc. If we’re focusing on the narrative again then I think it should be more of a priority; nobody publishes a book without at least an editor and dozens of rewritings and editing passes. A more polished writing softens the whole experience and makes the bad easier to manage and the good even better.
Twists:
I didn’t really plan to talk about this, but some people argued (fairly well) about the idea that Lib Day is a result of placing its “twist” as the center of its narrative. Now, while I can certainly agree that the idea has merit, I don’t think any of the writing flaws I’ve talked about should be affected by this. To see why, let’s talk a bit about twists in general (could go on and on, but will make it short).
Twists are at their core a sudden change of “genre” in any media (basically, game changers that can affect the whole narrative). It can be minor changes (from “story with a happy ending” to “story with a bittersweet ending”) to more major ones (“love comedy” to “military drama”). However, and that’s something important, the twist quality depends less on the change of genre itself and more on the execution of the genres both before and after. When you have a silly super-typical sitcom and in the last episode you suddenly kill the whole cast to a nuclear attack you have a shitty twist, because not only were the genres unbalanced (you basically had 99,9% of one and 0,1% of the other) but also because you’ve introduced the twist (genre shift) out of nowhere. If you for example put “the gang is transported to another world and then killed” then it’s already a tad better, but if the sitcom was bad and silly then their deaths would lose importance and accomplish nothing. No matter how good a subversion or twist you have, if your original is garbage then after it will continue to be. You need a proper execution of both “genres” and for there to be a balance between them in order for the twist to work
The twist also must be sufficiently surprising and shocking for people to not see it coming, but as said above you can’t pull it off your ass. Some knack for it is needed, and that’s why writing twists is pretty hard in the first place. With dimensional and time travels you can make use of some general conventions or Deus Ex Machina more easily, but then you need to develop 2 worlds and their differences convincingly.
That’s also why normally having grand twists for an ending is normally a very bad idea, because you basically force a small genre shift but have close to no space to show it, justify it or execute it well. You can pull it off in more minor cases, but it’s hard. The only 2 cases I can think of right now are Trails in the Sky (FC) and Trails of Cold Steel, both of which relied on extensive foreshadowing and even “fake endings”. The result is that they properly “finished” the first part, giving it a pseudo-ending and then pulled out to the new “genre” (in both cases it was a minor change from an “optimistic and formulaic JRPG” to a “darker, harsher JRPG”).
So, in summary, you need two well executed “genres”, a convincing but still surprising reason to cause the genre shift in the first place and finally a proper execution of it.
Now, Liberation Day has a supposed twist at its penultimate chapter. It takes the form of the previously commented “pseudo-ending”; it carries you to the ending of the first “genre” introduced before unleashing the twist and showing that there’s a big enemy/plot point/whatever that you didn’t realize until that moment. Now, this kind of technique has some pros and cons, like all things do. One of the cons of “pseudo-ending” is that it doesn’t magically cure the first genre of any flaw it may have; no matter how good the overall series are, people still give bad reviews to MuvLuv Extra simply because as a harem comedy it’s not that good (it’s not bad, because then reader wouldn't love the characters and the twist wouldn’t work at all, but it’s clearly not a masterpiece). If a game changes from an RPG to a shooter, even if it’s shooter part is magnificent if the RPG part is horrible it won’t be considered as good as it could have been if it was a shooter. While this can be extended to all twists in genera, In the case of the pseudoending is worse because you’re forced to take the first genre to its narrative conclusion, so if it’s bad you’re forced to go through all of it to reach the “good part”. While narrative is more complex, and you can use for example a more cliché scenario to contrast with a more nuanced and ambiguous revelation, that itself doesn’t justify a badly executed first scenario (and yes, you can make hundred of clichés work if you execute them well). You’re simply better working directly with the second scenario.
And the second problem this “pseudoending” has is that if the “twist” is completely predictable, then it loses all the power. As said before, this “pseudoending” works by “finishing” one “genre” and then smoothly showing something else you hadn’t realized; it’s major advantage is that it gives a sense of closure and safety before pulling out the twist and hitting the player when he is waiting for the credits to roll. If you see it coming and are waiting for it expectantly then it only makes the ending of that “part” cheaper and meaningless; of course you won’t feel anything at a goodbye if you know he/she will be back before the hour ends, neither any happiness nor closure when the hero finally gets his happy life if you know it won’t last 10 minutes, etc.
As the main point of doing it’s smoothly finish “one genre” and then move to another in one swift surprise, if the twist is predicted then, well, it would have the same effect as pulling the twist at any other moment without any kind of special effect nor contrast or shock. And simply pulling a twist in itself does not contribute positively or negatively to the writing; it’s simple a change on the genre, but it doesn’t affect directly to the prose, pacing and character development (the “2nd genre” will of course affect all of them, but the twist itself won’t). If you don’t manage to pull off the twist in a special way, this only makes the fact of pulling it at the ending have only disadvantages, as you don’t have time to “balance” the genres or justify the twist.
One of the greatest problems of the original release in fact comes from that: having the twist so near the ending made the genre shift come as one that changed the genre from “Star Wars/normal Space Opera” to “Kill them all”, instead of from “Star Wars/Normal Space Opera” to “Code Geass/Weird and harsh Space Opera” like it was supposed to be.
So, in summary, while the idea that a big part of the script from Liberation Day comes from its supposed twist is very interesting from a meta perspective, it doesn’t absolve nor worsen any of the writing itself: as the twist is previsible it simply doesn’t have any shock or surprise value, nor manages to give any sense of closure, thus being relegated to a “simple” plot development.
We can even argue about if there really ever was a genre shift or if some parts of Liberation Day were only a decoy, which would put in doubt if it can even be called a twist. I personally think that would be fighting over semantics, but some may think differently.
And finally; writing is hard. It's also not something you can make a list of "things to do" and make a great result. Writing always requires a bit of inspiration, and there are a ton of great works out there that don't fulfill a lot of the things pointed here as "right". However, is fairly undeniable that this tidbits make the final work worse. Thus, with this write ups I don't pretend to teach anyone how to write. However, I think it's a good compilation of things that if you have, you should at least think carefully about.
|
|