|
Post by Rellek on May 26, 2016 4:22:36 GMT -8
When Liberation day came out, I'm not going to lie, I was quite upset with how things worked out, but with 2.0 and [re]turn I felt Sunrider was becoming the game I fell in love with again. The railroading now feels like it makes sense to me and less like a deliberate slap in the face. [Re]turn is a TRIUMPH! I loved everything about it. My only regret is that it isn't canon. I feel like it was so good that it deserves to be canon, but I understand how that might not be the best thing for the continuity of the story as a whole, as much as I wish it was. I can still dream though, and my Kayto finally got together with his childhood friend and first love again. Beautiful.
|
|
|
Post by ryanxwonbin on May 26, 2016 4:48:10 GMT -8
Finished Ava's endings, tried Sola out a bit. I decided not to progress other endings further mainly because the dialogue and events remain mostly the same, as least from what I am seeing.
Overall, I think it's an alright fanservice and return gift for those who hated how Liberation Day ended. Personally for me I actually liked how Liberation Day went; it was either a brand new set-up for a new story with the theme of what humanity is, or a cheesy happy ending story. I'm more interested in a sequel with the original ending rather than re-write fanservice.
I am disappointed that a lot of the script and events remain the same though. Was hoping things would progress more different for each route. And I REALLY wanted a choice where Kayto decides he isn't going to rewrite the universe, because I'm the kind of person that thinks one should live on with their mistakes rather than trying to change the past. Unless I'm mistaken (Haven't tried Asaga/Icari routes and tried Sola's alt/worst endings) it doesn't seem like there's a choice to keep the original ending intact.
6/10
|
|
|
Post by valikdu on May 26, 2016 5:28:51 GMT -8
And I REALLY wanted a choice where Kayto decides he isn't going to rewrite the universe That would be Asaga/Sola's 'normal' endings, no?
|
|
|
Post by valikdu on May 26, 2016 12:24:21 GMT -8
I sorta have to complain about the "trapped" endings. I think that they don't always make sense logically.
I mean, if you can't get out of confinement while the Sunrider is shut down, shouldn't the same thing happen as with the "explosive decompression" bad end? That is, Alice just attacks the ship and blows it away while it's defenseless.
I'd say that the real "trapped" scenarios should only occur if the ship isn't shut down.
And even then... isn't Lynn also in the brig, and she's supposed to break out shortly after the Massacre to save Kayto Shields? As in, you? And Cosette might also be there, although she might potentially be another Bad End.
|
|
|
Post by Nemjen on May 26, 2016 13:15:23 GMT -8
And Cosette might also be there, although she might potentially be another Bad End. That would have really made my day as content, especially if we managed to get a little Bad End quip from Claude that Cosette tries to interrupt.
|
|
|
Post by sweetlove on May 26, 2016 20:32:58 GMT -8
I'm curious but how are the bad endings 4 and 5 reached? I think I've gone through all the choices but I seem to have missed them somehow.
|
|
|
Post by valikdu on May 27, 2016 0:19:37 GMT -8
I've made a guide on Steam, btw.
To get those, you need to choose a girl that can't break you out of the brig (Asaga or Sola) and get yourself put in there, without first stealing Claude's holo for evidence. Without it, Ava won't let you out. Bad end.
|
|
|
Post by sweetlove on May 27, 2016 4:05:02 GMT -8
Here's another, more plot-related question: Considering the degree of control the prototypes are shown to have over Chigara in [RE]take, why is Chigara entering into the mindstream even necessary again? The rationale seem to be given in-game is that while Alice can control Chigara, she somehow can't do it while being 'dead', as per the prototypes' plans, thus she needs to move herself onto Chigara's body beforehand. If the problem is Alice dying during the battle of the Nightmare Ascendant, couldn't she simply have moved herself to any one of the other clones in the mindstream, then control Chigara anyway as per shown in [RE]take?
|
|
|
Post by wingcapt4 on May 27, 2016 6:31:16 GMT -8
I forgot why it is necessary for her to enter the mindstream. Have to play the vanilla LD again. I'm guessing is that at that point, she can only enter the minds of clones who are currently active. The clones in Diode are seemingly still under incubation so they're a no-go, and by the time the final battle goes awry for Alice, all the active clones--the advanced ryder pilots--have been killed at that point except for Lynn, who can't do anything, being locked up in the brig. Also, I think at that point, Lynn has lost her connection to the mindstream.
BTW, post-release, I still found a couple errors:
"Where're my input, doc?!" (input ---> inputs)
"No one's ever gonna believe a whacky story like this, except Asaga" (whacky ---> wacky)
Asaga: "I know I it's a dumb thing to ask" (remove "I")
Asaga route in the reactor: "The ship took another hit, knocking the two of them..." (should be "three of them": Kayto, Asaga, and Icari are together here)
Asaga awakening in the reactor: "...He peered over the console and saw a hoard of marines..." (hoard ---> horde)
"Going out with the most popular guy in the galaxy sure a pain" (sure is a pain)
"Further, the holo we found within the room... Chigara is a human and throws grave a shadow..." (Chigara is human and throws a grave shadow)
"Uhh... Thanks for busting me of the brig" (out of the brig)
"Asaga has filled me in about the details of the situation" (filled me in on the details)
"now that the ship's on high alert, that's going to be nowhere as easy as before" (nowhere near as easy as before)
Alice kicked Shields and pointed his rifle at him (his ---> her. It is her rifle afterall)
He gritted his teeth and took another step towards into the sea of fire (remove "into")
"I have won Shields!" ("I have won, Shields!" missing comma)
Also noticed "Fereldan" spelt differently at some points. (Fereldin, Ferelden)
|
|
|
Post by sephiroth12285 on May 27, 2016 9:14:09 GMT -8
Well after spending a lot of time playing unlocking endings through a difficult trial and error process while killing Kayto in a number of painful ways, which somehow I wouldn't be surprised to hear if some people probably enjoyed doing it on purpose XD
But not me, but enough of my bad attempts at humor.
The game itself, although I wished some routes and choices played out a little more differently, but it did make it easier to figure out which choices had to be made to get the good endings which made it a little too easy by then.
However it still had many good points, which among my favorites was Kayto's own observations of his past self including the man to man confrontation between them. The banter between him and some of the past characters like Ava and Icari.
Claude....what can I say, but Damn....just damn lol.
Even through its non-canon but I do wonder if any of the backstory mentioned by Alice and Claude through her sceret ending are semi-canon in the sense that Sola's route was also canon in a simailr sense.
|
|
|
Post by truebeliever on May 27, 2016 9:16:33 GMT -8
Good fixes, although in this case:
"Where're my input, doc?!"
the real problem is not "input," which is fine being singular, but the "Where're," which should be "Where's." Also, I think "Asaga has filled me in about the details of the situation" reads fine as is.
Another fix that'd be nice is this:
Come to think of it, he knew next to nothing about Claude, except for what he could gleam from his fragmented memories of the future.
"Gleam" should be "glean."
|
|
|
Post by nordsquatch on May 27, 2016 21:09:31 GMT -8
Who is responsible for this script!? I haven't laughed so much while playing a VN before. Good job! this expansion is worthy of the game by far.
|
|
|
Post by Gamerjunkie27 on May 27, 2016 23:24:27 GMT -8
This was... really fun. I think I just spent about 8-9 hours clearing all the routes. I laughed a lot. Took many screenshots and uploaded 95 of them to Steam, most with my own thoughts at the time. Ava's really gotten a lot better since MoA from my perspective. It's going to be a bit annoying to have to replay all of the base game to get her other set of CGs (Non-eyepatch) to unlock that last missing bit in the gallery, though. Claude has become a genuine point of interest for me, especially with her ending. Icari back in her swimsuit was fun, as was our wingman, Kryska. Finally, we see a reference to Sola's glimpse of her route in SA, and her reaction to it. And, of course, Asaga was back to her usual energetic self.
|
|
|
Post by qwerty848 on May 28, 2016 11:27:24 GMT -8
In my opinion, [RE]turn was a really welcome addition into the Sunrider universe. It was really interesting to see the events of Liberation Day from the perspective of a more cool-headed Kayto. I had a blast trying different choices to get the best ending possible in my first playthrough. My favorite ending was,by far, "Future won by blood"; I think that ending was pretty emotional,well executed and it was the ending that align the most with my vision of Kayto since I mainly make pragmatic or "prince" choices.
My only minor complaint about [RE]turn is that I think it was really unforgiving for those who rolled a prince Kayto.(sorry if this is a spoiler, I'm new here and I don't know how to add spoiler tags) In order to get the good endings one has to basically make all the moralist choices, which seems kind of "unfair"; how come that only a moralist and idealistic Kayto gets the good endings? I agree that a prince Kayto has to somewhat be punished for being cold and ruthless, but he is also the one who had to sacrifice the most for his cause. If not for the post-credits scene of "Future won by blood" that ending would have been perfect for those who rolled a pragmatic kayto, at least in my opinion (maybe it's just personal preference).I was not expecting a happy ending, but more of a bittersweet one where Kayto still has the will to fight despite everything, similar to Ava's normal end. It is also worth noting that the ebon fleet seems to magically disappear in most endings. What do you guys think about all this?
Overall, I liked this dlc a lot and I'm extremely grateful to Samu-kun for doing this for us and free of charge. I'm can't wait to see what's next for the canon timeline of Sunrider. Sunrider Liberation Day was one of the games I was looking forward the most despite so many AAA titles releasing this year.Thank you so much for everything Love in Space.
p.s Looking forward to the events that were foreshadowed in some of the endings, especially in Sola's.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 28, 2016 18:38:59 GMT -8
Here's another, more plot-related question: Considering the degree of control the prototypes are shown to have over Chigara in [RE]take, why is Chigara entering into the mindstream even necessary again? The rationale seem to be given in-game is that while Alice can control Chigara, she somehow can't do it while being 'dead', as per the prototypes' plans, thus she needs to move herself onto Chigara's body beforehand. If the problem is Alice dying during the battle of the Nightmare Ascendant, couldn't she simply have moved herself to any one of the other clones in the mindstream, then control Chigara anyway as per shown in [RE]take? As I understand it, it was because there was a division of interests between Alice and Alpha. Alpha seemed to have wanted Chigara to be the tool with which to control Kayto as a puppet-leader over humanity so as to "properly guide" their development. As far as I can tell, Chigara was originally created to observe and monitor Asaga's growth, but by chance and fate she ended up on the one ship that proved pivotal to the conflict. Alpha then sent Claude in to play matchmaker so as to manipulate Kayto into becoming humanity's figurehead under their control. However, Alice had other plans - she wanted humanity to be wiped out and went against Alpha, opting to embed herself in Chigara so as to attack when everyone's guards were dropped and spark another conflict; Kayto trusted Chigara as Alpha intended, so what other Prototype was in such a perfect position to bring it all crashing down. In fact, if Alice had the foresight to know entering the Mindstream was the only way Kayto/Chigara could have countered her control over the PACT ships, it's possible that this was all backup-plan in case the "impossible" happened and she was defeated/killed -ensuring that, no matter who won or lost at Cera, humanity would fall into a war of self-destruction and Kayto, who was key to Alpha's plans of "unification for humankind", would end up disgraced or dead and his value as a figurehead shattered.
|
|
|
Post by sweetlove on May 29, 2016 21:04:05 GMT -8
As I understand it, it was because there was a division of interests between Alice and Alpha. Alpha seemed to have wanted Chigara to be the tool with which to control Kayto as a puppet-leader over humanity so as to "properly guide" their development. As far as I can tell, Chigara was originally created to observe and monitor Asaga's growth, but by chance and fate she ended up on the one ship that proved pivotal to the conflict. Alpha then sent Claude in to play matchmaker so as to manipulate Kayto into becoming humanity's figurehead under their control. However, Alice had other plans - she wanted humanity to be wiped out and went against Alpha, opting to embed herself in Chigara so as to attack when everyone's guards were dropped and spark another conflict; Kayto trusted Chigara as Alpha intended, so what other Prototype was in such a perfect position to bring it all crashing down. In fact, if Alice had the foresight to know entering the Mindstream was the only way Kayto/Chigara could have countered her control over the PACT ships, it's possible that this was all backup-plan in case the "impossible" happened and she was defeated/killed -ensuring that, no matter who won or lost at Cera, humanity would fall into a war of self-destruction and Kayto, who was key to Alpha's plans of "unification for humankind", would end up disgraced or dead and his value as a figurehead shattered. Forgive me if I'm wrong but I'm under the assumption that Alice's 'death' was a core part of the prototypes' plan to unify humanity in a Lelouch-esque scenario. The only part that Alice changed being the LD massacre that followed it. Am I missing something here?
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 30, 2016 5:49:54 GMT -8
As I understand it, it was because there was a division of interests between Alice and Alpha. Alpha seemed to have wanted Chigara to be the tool with which to control Kayto as a puppet-leader over humanity so as to "properly guide" their development. As far as I can tell, Chigara was originally created to observe and monitor Asaga's growth, but by chance and fate she ended up on the one ship that proved pivotal to the conflict. Alpha then sent Claude in to play matchmaker so as to manipulate Kayto into becoming humanity's figurehead under their control. However, Alice had other plans - she wanted humanity to be wiped out and went against Alpha, opting to embed herself in Chigara so as to attack when everyone's guards were dropped and spark another conflict; Kayto trusted Chigara as Alpha intended, so what other Prototype was in such a perfect position to bring it all crashing down. In fact, if Alice had the foresight to know entering the Mindstream was the only way Kayto/Chigara could have countered her control over the PACT ships, it's possible that this was all backup-plan in case the "impossible" happened and she was defeated/killed -ensuring that, no matter who won or lost at Cera, humanity would fall into a war of self-destruction and Kayto, who was key to Alpha's plans of "unification for humankind", would end up disgraced or dead and his value as a figurehead shattered. Forgive me if I'm wrong but I'm under the assumption that Alice's 'death' was a core part of the prototypes' plan to unify humanity in a Lelouch-esque scenario. The only part that Alice changed being the LD massacre that followed it. Am I missing something here? That's what I said, isn't it? That had been the plan from Alpha's perspective - however, Alice didn't go quietly down said path of martyrdom. Like I said though, after Kayto became a pivotal factor in the war, making him the figurehead whom Alice was to be defeated by became the newest part of the plan - she chose him to be the final piece of the puzzle. It's also because Alice's "death" was potentially planned by Alpha that I personally wonder if Alpha herself planned Chigara's entering the Mindstream and the Liberation Day Massacre as the backup against that, even though she believed the chances of her own loss were minuscule to nonexistent (though that would wholly depend on whether or not Alice even knew Alpha planed on her dying). What you're saying was the general plan as far as humanity goes. What I did earlier was illustrate how Alpha used Claude and Chigara to incorporate Kayto into that plan after determining him suitable for the position of "mankind's figurehead" - and how Alice turned Alpha's intents for Kayto against her to doom Alpha's goal of unifying humanity under Prototype rule. What was originally asked was "why did Alice go through the trouble of mind-hacking and "incarnating" into Chigara instead of any other Prototype?" - my response was because (A) she wanted humanity eradicated, (B) Alpha's unification plan eventually coming to hinge on Chigara and Kayto's ties made Chigara the perfect one to destabilize it all from, (C) Chigara was the only Prototype behind enemy lines at that point, save for the incarcerated Lynn, and (D) Alice had no issue with dying if it meant she succeeded in ensuring humanity's destruction; she only cared if she died before that point. Chigara's entering the Mindstream was necessary for Alice because that was the only other way she could hope to destabilize things if she was actually bested.
|
|
|
Post by sweetlove on May 30, 2016 11:50:36 GMT -8
Our viewpoints seem to differ in where the two plans diverge; I only see the divergence at the very end, while you seem to see it as being somewhere... else. I find the latter viewpoint questionable since there is no reason for Alice to have gone so far playing the act and leading everyone on. Also, it is implied that Alice did not want to directly confront Alpha over their differences, as well as being a death seeker, which leads me to believe that Alice would not have wanted to make her decisive action be something which she needed to take the spotlight for. The Liberation Day massacre, in which she pulls the trigger but plays out by itself, seems much more likely like a primary course of action than a last resort.
But I digress. My main question was not as to Alice's motivations, but the technical details as to why the mindstream is necessary. The current answer given seems to be that Alice's 'death' negatively affects her ability to control Chigara remotely, but even then, I don't see a reason why she could not have simply moved herself to another clone and accomplished the same deed. After all, it seems doubtful that Alpha would have planned for Alice's death to be permanent so a backup seems highly likely. Unfortunately, I do not find qwerty848's speculations about the prototypes simply not keeping any clones in reserve particularly satisfactory, since the entire thing is one big play, and there is no rerason to commit so much to a battle they intend to lose anyway.
EDIT: To clarify, I'd like to point out how Alice is flat-out controlling Chisaga in [RE]turn as to why I'm raising the question at all.
|
|
|
Post by 白龍 on May 30, 2016 13:28:53 GMT -8
I like it!
Asaga's Route: Most Fun
Icari's Route: Most Hilarious
Sola's Route: Most Romantic
Ava's Route: Most Realistic (In a good or bad way, I'm not sure. Probably leaning more towards the mundane way in reference to escapement from reality.)
Claude's Route: Most Jedi-ish
|
|
|
Post by Nagashofchaos on May 30, 2016 18:15:55 GMT -8
My opinions and a theory/thought
Asaga/Ava/Sola routes: in complaints, don't know if I'll reply them... maybe Asaga's :3 Icari route: Her current personality feels a bit too generic (don't know what word to exactly use), but Kryska's performance in it saves it. Hell, even makes it funny enough to be the best route. Cosette's non-appearance: Even when Kayto goes back in time he still forgets to even look in her general direction. I feel Cosette reacting to two Kayto's may have been a missed opportunity, as well as her in the trapped bad end (maybe adding that bit to make the bad end not so "bad". As some Fate/Stay Night bad end's aren't exactly bad, but not good). Past Claude: Is there any point she reacts to two Kayto's? Because you'd think that would be something to take a second glance at. Claude Secret Ending: Man, I wish you guys could have had a art piece made for Alice getting... what word can I even use. I would have possibly added more to just the horror of what happened (if done well)
As the first post says spoiler alert, this theory requires knowledge of Claude's secret ending. Now the man thing I got from this ending was this, why does Claude fixate on Kayto. Well I feel the ending might just explain it. It is because a Time Traveler called Kayto appeared before her and among other things made her a Time Traveler. The main credence to this thought is that the law of... (word) wasn't activated due to his presence before her. Had Kayto not been meant to be there that law should have destroyed the universe as whatever Claude was doing would have been interrupted there by fing up nearly everything after that. With this now we can guess there might be a chance Kayto may come across a god by the name of Kayto.
|
|
|
Post by 白龍 on May 30, 2016 18:50:14 GMT -8
My opinions and a theory/thought Asaga/Ava/Sola routes: in complaints, don't know if I'll reply them... maybe Asaga's :3 Icari route: Her current personality feels a bit too generic (don't know what word to exactly use), but Kryska's performance in it saves it. Hell, even makes it funny enough to be the best route. Cosette's non-appearance: Even when Kayto goes back in time he still forgets to even look in her general direction. I feel Cosette reacting to two Kayto's may have been a missed opportunity, as well as her in the trapped bad end (maybe adding that bit to make the bad end not so "bad". As some Fate/Stay Night bad end's aren't exactly bad, but not good). Past Claude: Is there any point she reacts to two Kayto's? Because you'd think that would be something to take a second glance at. Claude Secret Ending: Man, I wish you guys could have had a art piece made for Alice getting... what word can I even use. I would have possibly added more to just the horror of what happened (if done well) As the first post says spoiler alert, this theory requires knowledge of Claude's secret ending. Now the man thing I got from this ending was this, why does Claude fixate on Kayto. Well I feel the ending might just explain it. It is because a Time Traveler called Kayto appeared before her and among other things made her a Time Traveler. The main credence to this thought is that the law of... (word) wasn't activated due to his presence before her. Had Kayto not been meant to be there that law should have destroyed the universe as whatever Claude was doing would have been interrupted there by fing up nearly everything after that. With this now we can guess there might be a chance Kayto may come across a god by the name of Kayto. The Past Claude part* Yeah, there was one part that was really, really brief during a battle. She comments on how she just stumbled across something interesting and went :3. Law of Casualty* A paradoxial loop in time with no beginning or end.
|
|
|
Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 30, 2016 19:31:03 GMT -8
Our viewpoints seem to differ in where the two plans diverge; I only see the divergence at the very end, while you seem to see it as being somewhere... else. I find the latter viewpoint questionable since there is no reason for Alice to have gone so far playing the act and leading everyone on. Also, it is implied that Alice did not want to directly confront Alpha over their differences, as well as being a death seeker, which leads me to believe that Alice would not have wanted to make her decisive action be something which she needed to take the spotlight for. The Liberation Day massacre, in which she pulls the trigger but plays out by itself, seems much more likely like a primary course of action than a last resort. But I digress. My main question was not as to Alice's motivations, but the technical details as to why the mindstream is necessary. The current answer given seems to be that Alice's 'death' negatively affects her ability to control Chigara remotely, but even then, I don't see a reason why she could not have simply moved herself to another clone and accomplished the same deed. After all, it seems doubtful that Alpha would have planned for Alice's death to be permanent so a backup seems highly likely. Unfortunately, I do not find qwerty848's speculations about the prototypes simply not keeping any clones in reserve particularly satisfactory, since the entire thing is one big play, and there is no rerason to commit so much to a battle they intend to lose anyway. EDIT: To clarify, I'd like to point out how Alice is flat-out controlling Chisaga in [RE]turn as to why I'm raising the question at all. "Else"? I don't see what you're talking about - our viewpoints don't actually diverge; you just seem to THINK they do. Alpha and Alice ALWAYS had a difference of opinion on what to do about humanity. The entire reason Alice took up Arcadius' mantle was because she intended to force humankind into a war of self-destruction. Alpha wanted the opposite - she wanted humanity united under Prototype rule. When Kayto became a factor in the war, both sides developed their own intents for him - as Alpha to use him as a figurehead, Alice desired to undermine that goal. The "division" at the end about what to do regarding Kayto, the newest element of the war, was the end-result of a long-standing segregation in viewpoints between the two Prototype leaders. The reason Alice went that far was BECAUSE she wanted to lead everyone into self-destruction - the loss of the original Arcadius, whom she loved, drove her to obsessive lengths to exact a self-righteous revenge on humanity. Also, I think Alice was less a death-seeker and more an anarchist/nihilist, in that she wanted everyone to die WITH her - she sought death for all humankind and she refused to die until she did that. If she just wanted to simply die as you claimed, I don't think she'd have clung to Chigara after her own death. And her demeanor during the final battle of Cera, both in the main game and [RE]Turn, seems to contradict a "death-seeker" mentality - she was shocked, perhaps even horrified, at the idea that her Nightmare Ascendent could be bested and that she'd die before seeing the end of humanity. So to me, the Liberation Day Massacre seemed a secondary plan as opposed to a primary one. As for the Mindstream... again, I think Alice's motivations ARE the reason it was necessary. If she had tried to take over Chigara normally, Alpha would have been aware of it and might even have stopped her - Alice basically "faked" her (mind's) death so that Alpha wouldn't realize her plan had been sabotaged until too late. And she could not have "moved herself to another clone and accomplished the same deed" because (A) no other clone existed behind enemy lines, and (B) no other clone was so closely tied to Kayto that she could destabilize ALL OF HUMANITY in one blow. And that's not quite the point I was making - Alpha planning for Alice's death isn't affected by weather or not Alice's mind survived; all that's required of the plan is Alice's physical body die in battle to rally humanity. Alice's MIND betraying Alpha wasn't expected, though. If they were "intending to lose" so that humankind could be united, then it was undermined and ruined by Alice destroying that unity at the last moment. As for [RE]Turn, at that point it's just a simple override - the whole reason for the subterfuge in the main game was to keep ALPHA from knowing what was going to happen until too late. But in [RE]Turn, the timeline becomes so skewered that it becomes impossible for Alice to get what she wants at that point anyway, instead settling for the only other take-away she has left; making sure the Sunrider goes down with her.
|
|