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Post by Drath on Mar 7, 2016 9:48:35 GMT -8
I don't think it's really meant to be 'ha ha' funny, but it is playing with the trope that in many mecha stories the situation at some point or another turns particularly sour and hopeless only for some ridiculous twist to save everyone. Sam hasn't told me a thing about what's going to happen, but my perspective is that of 'how in the world are they gonna get out of this' rather than 'omg it's hopeless. it's all over. we're DOOOOMED' we saw the Bianca get shot through but then again, from the sound of her voice Claude is clearly 'the wanderer' who Alpha was talking to when they referred to the 'Ebon Fleet' (totally not the reapers). She's always been mysterious but that confirms she is nothing at all who she seems. After the credits Crow refers to a woman timetraveler who absolutely has to be Claude. she's certainly not dead, and I'm saying this as a fellow fan. Sam tells me nothing. Then there's Chigara and she's very clearly dead. Well, sure would've been useful if there were like a near infinite number of clones of her. oh, wait. I mean, if Alice could put her mind into Chigara's body, I'm sure Chigara could put her mind into another clone. how that works, no idea. that's what deus ex machina plot devices are for. She'll be back one way or the other for sure. The rest is alive when the story cuts out, and although their situation is grim any number of things could be thought up to turn things around. even if timetravel is required to do so. What did Ava find amongst Claude's stuff anyway? I don't know if any of this is true, but I have a good feeling about it. My point is that depending on the framing of your perspective on the ending you can get away with very different things, and it's only 'funny' when put into context with the great mecha anime and space operas of the past where the heroes got out of similar situations somehow. My perspective was they are NOT going to get out of it (none of them, except Asaga and Sola) and that it was a deliberate attempt to wipe the slate clean and to start with mostly new characters. Ha you see that's why I am reluctant to make comments on the story. I don't get certain things. I don't watch mecha anime. So my views are probably not the same as those who do so. I don't think either way of seeing things is wrong but that's how I see it from my side. I hope you paste this on Steam though. Might cut the negative reviews by half. I also hope they mostly agree with you though and don't feel that it cheapens the plot. Yea I caught the Teehee and all... mannerisms-wise she certainly fit Claude... So I guess essentially you're saying that Claude took Crow's time travel device, whisked herself out in the nick of time before she got shot and came back to alter the timeline where the catastrophe happened and the ending was completely rewritten? Maybe? Dunno how acceptable that will be to others though.
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Post by vaendryl on Mar 7, 2016 10:54:21 GMT -8
If I post anything to the steam forum it's gonna be taken as the word of god so I'm hesitant to do so. I'll leave it to Sam to do damage control. What I'm saying is that when Crow said "Further, it appears the Farari bitch was also caught in the temporal blast and flung into this time line as well..." he was referring to Claude. I think she's not originally from this timeline and therefore known as 'the wanderer'. She likely got away without dying by using some trick we don't know about. or maybe she really is dead, I don't know. I just think it's likely she isn't. Maybe Ava manages to somehow get whatever device of Claude's she found back in the hands of Asaga and Sola who then manage to go back in time and prevent Alice from killing Grey etc. it's just one of possible paths things could play out, and I'd be just as curious to see what really happens as anyone else. I certainly don't think LibDay's ending is supposed to pave way for a new cast of characters. I don't think there has ever been a story to successfully pull something like that off. I think if you want to get into the right frame of mind you should really spend some time watching 'code geass'. especially the ending to season 2. It's clearly been a huge influence on Sam's writing. If you've not played through Mass Effect yet then you owe it to yourself to do that as well (great series!)
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Post by Blackhead on Mar 7, 2016 11:25:42 GMT -8
Ok, I have to point out some important things here. What the Sunrider franchise needs right now, is direction. There are huge discrepancies within the community at the moment and it's impossible to point out what really went wrong. Was it the ending? Forced Chigara romance? Too much emphasis on gameplay? Too much emphasis on CGs/Art/Animation? Or that we switched to japanese voice actors? Well... it all depends on who you're asking. This exchange between Samu, Drath is pretty much exemplary: Uhh yeah, obviously we could have added more story content if we had focused less on the battles. Absolutely NOT. The battles SHOULD retain at least the same quality as they are now, or even better with a few new added units/abilities. It's the story parts which need to be dragged up to the same quality and quantity as the battles. If you don't think you have enough resources to do both, cut art or VA or the opening song or do another small scale kickstarter. While I 100% agree with Drath on this one, it's unlikely that the vast majority of players thinks likewise. I do believe that many people didn't give a shit about gameplay and expected a fully fledged dating Sim comparable to Academy. At least that's the impression I've got from looking through steam reviews/discussions. What I'm saying is, that it's hard to pinpoint Sunrider's genre. (On one hand tactical, turnbased strategy on the other visual novel/+indicating romance via choices.) It's a little bit of everything, and this lead to wrong expectations by default, and ultimately disappointed players because they didn't get whatever the hell they wanted/saw in Sunrider. Either way Samu has to find out what players really want in the next game. Making a few polls could probably help to get a better overall picture, more so than to read what single individuals write here in the forums. It's inevitable that Samu has to make tough calls for the next game.
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Post by bigfoot on Mar 7, 2016 13:27:48 GMT -8
Well, honestly I think one of the things that did us in was a huge misunderstanding during our beta test process. I legitimately thought all this time that we were making an indie Japanese tactics RPG game with some VN elements. Basically, we spent the majority of our time analyzing the huge game play analysis write ups that our beta testers provided, and devising new units, strategies, items, and balance which will appeal to them. --snip-- I was actually concerned there was too much story, because all the tactics RPGs I've played never took the player away from the game play as much as Liberation Day and made sure to breeze through the plot so that you could get back to the gameplay soon. I was also not really concerned about Kayto temporarily getting hitched with Chigara, since most of the JRPGs I've played have had forced romance, and everyone on the dev team already know that this wasn't really a real romance route anyways, just some plot development. Likewise, I wasn't really concerned with the lack of choices, since most of the JRPGs I've played didn't have many meaningful choices and mostly had linear story lines. I was shocked to discover on release day that people actually skipped most of the gameplay by playing on waifu mode, and breezed through the story in just 3-4 hours. Well, yeah, it's to be expected that the game would be short then, because you essentially took a tactics RPG, skipped all the tactics RPG, and just read the story. --snip-- Early game spoilers ahead! I thought I should write this as hopefully a bit of optimism Whilst it might have flopped a bit, I think offering the V2 is a great step to regaining 'goodwill'. The thing I have always enjoyed about Sunrider is the blend of tactical and story, that's why I've been hanging around for a year modding, I have always found pure story games with little game-play quite flat and a lot of tactics games seem to exist in a vacuum with barely any relationship to the story whilst MoA was a good fusion of the two that is quite unique. Spoiler so as not to take up too much room I admit I'm not someone who watches anime or plays dating sims and I haven't had time to beat the game yet (but I wanted to chime in with some encouragement as it must be upsetting for this to happen) but it seems to me by chaining yourself to one archetype or another is limiting. I do think the complaints about choices are overblown, the first two games didn't have much in the way of choices and they were perfectly fine, that said the story also didn't force you in the same way as LD seems to, having tea is more building a friendship rather than being forced into having Chigara as a lover. Just because Japanese games may have only shallow choices doesn't mean yours need to although it is a significant plot point. In lieu of game sweeping choices, reactivity to the player would go a long way to easing the story. As it is, with no way to choose who you talk to next, you feel like a puppet whilst in MoA, at least you can choose who is more important for you to talk to first, and who you spend time with. Playing It sounds like the Beta testing problem was too small a sample size, for the next one perhaps you could pick some of the most vocal community people in steam and offer them access to a beta, if you get more of a wide selection then you can get a better feel for what people want. I can't help think people are expecting too much of LD, because First Arrival and Mask of Arcadius were combined into a single game and a lot of people might not realize that. If they think of MoA as the prologue it dose seem very strange to have the third game be shorter. When it comes to voices, I am sure you looked at the best way to do them (and whilst I would personally have wished the resources on more story, I know its not as simple as "money makes things immediately happen") and we can probably trust you didn't go out of your way to make the most expensive game possible . I haven't gotten too far in the story, so can't comment too much about that (although some of the writing reads awkwardly, this in particular stuck in my head: Unless Kayto listens with his eyes, it either sounds like he thinks Chigara's name is part numeric or his made up name for her is a tenuous link they might be related. In some places, the text seems quite 'blocky' where it describes what happens, and the prose can be slightly awkward and could be improved where characters feel like their archtypes rather than actual people. Not everyone will share my view but they can feel like cardboard cutouts rather than nuanced characters. On the gameplay, I do think the battles are smoother, and although I agree with Marx that there could be more progression, in FA and MoA, it is much more noticeable simply because it's the start of the game. I like the more reactive use of CMD, that you don't hoard it like in MoA and it's good finally having alliance carriers and Ryders (I might backport them into MoA if you have no objection) I really don't like the new UI much, when it comes to research in particular as it feels far too cluttered and I think the semi-wireframe is much more suited to it. It also feels daft to be able to look into research while talking to Ava in sickbay, without the ship map. It feels like you are jumping out of the story and conversations then popping back in at a whim. In short, Whilst it isn't as good to my mind as MoA I think it is suffering from perspective, being one game rather than two and it would benefit from even just 'seeming' less linear. One major problem with it for me is that there feels like there's a disconnect with Kayto that makes the story feel slightly off. (I generally dislike time travel as I feel it often invalidates all story growth, and I might have a problem with that later on in the story but otherwise I will wait to finish it before I comment). I think the complaints are exaggerated to an extent ( If it says To Be Continued, it probably isn't the last in the series!) I don't think the length is too short, I blew through both FA and MoA in a single evening, neither of them were overly long. Hopefully if you don't have to do much more work on the combat, and its stable then you will have more time that can be devoted to the story. However I do wish you had communicated with the community a bit better, letting people believe what they will about the game is only going to cause disappointment when it doesn't pan out. ("all your waifu's are here") Self Bias:This comes from a perspective of someone who cannot see Chigara as someone to have a relationship with and will doubtless resent it when the time comes and unlike most people playing it sees no inherent virtue of being similar to Japanese games, Sunrider can stand on its own strength. I hope this reads encouragingly rather than depressingly and I am looking forward to the next part of the game.
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Post by BITE ME UNIVERSE on Mar 7, 2016 14:14:09 GMT -8
Maybe Los Angeles. The real things which contributed to the time crunch were actually conventions and Kickstarter deadlines. AX is the biggest trade show for visual novels, so you need to align your product release dates so that you can make the biggest announcements when AX hits. Second, if you have a Kickstarter, you have to deliver when promised or else your backers get angry real quick. In any matter, I don't think the production of Liberation Day was rushed or that we ran out of time. Yes, Los Angeles has Bangzoom. And if you were going to rent out that studio, good luck, it's pricey as hell. There are some college campus studios that a person can use but then again, they have to be part of the college but for the most part they have the full professional equipment handy. A lot of English VA's are scattered around the country, and he's right, flying them out is a pain. The ones you hear most live in either Houston, Dallas, or LA, and they're the ones most people grew up on. The closer you live to the studio the more roles you land and the more you get paid, and the more recognition you get, and then those who are really good and have been doing this for years are expensive because they're good at it so finding aspiring VA's is 1) hard and 2) lacking talent. Even I still have a few things to work on before I finish my VA demo. Tbh, getting Kira Buckland on MoA was an astounding victory in itself and she's a great VA who is grabbing more and more credit as she goes, previously landing in a few anime with decent roles already. Personally, I go to AX for vendors, artist alley, cosplay (and to take photos of cosplayers), and panels. I hardly consider it a trade show for VN's, and I hardly see any there. Even when I went to the Sekai Project and MuvLuv booths, they were fairly vacant. Idk how Sentai Filmworks and a few other places land a booth when most of the time they just have TV screens and present their product....and they take up a HUGE chunk of the floor. I'm talking front area, biggest spots, expensive. Vendors in mind, most people buy things on the AX floor because it's convenient, they hardly look for VN's unless it's Nekopara or Fate or anything else that's super hype. There is another thing here with JVA's and that's basically Samu-Kun's target audience. I live in Los Angeles and a majority of the time I hear how much better subs are than dubs, and how people can't stand English VA's. There are a lot of reasons for that which I have listed in another thread.
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Post by ariesbuonarroti on Mar 7, 2016 14:28:58 GMT -8
If I post anything to the steam forum it's gonna be taken as the word of god so I'm hesitant to do so. I'll leave it to Sam to do damage control. What I'm saying is that when Crow said "Further, it appears the Farari bitch was also caught in the temporal blast and flung into this time line as well..." he was referring to Claude. I think she's not originally from this timeline and therefore known as 'the wanderer'. She likely got away without dying by using some trick we don't know about. or maybe she really is dead, I don't know. I just think it's likely she isn't. Maybe Ava manages to somehow get whatever device of Claude's she found back in the hands of Asaga and Sola who then manage to go back in time and prevent Alice from killing Grey etc. it's just one of possible paths things could play out, and I'd be just as curious to see what really happens as anyone else. I certainly don't think LibDay's ending is supposed to pave way for a new cast of characters. I don't think there has ever been a story to successfully pull something like that off. I think if you want to get into the right frame of mind you should really spend some time watching 'code geass'. especially the ending to season 2. It's clearly been a huge influence on Sam's writing. If you've not played through Mass Effect yet then you owe it to yourself to do that as well (great series!) I really don't think Code Geass or Mass Effect should get thrown around at all. CG is widely known for having a good first season with a cliffhanger ending, and then an absolute trainwreck second season (much like another oft-mentioned series here, Aldnoah/Zero). ME is known for two good games followed by a finale so disappointing the resulting outrage is still a meme to date. Like, I understand all those series have good concepts and there's nothing wrong with using them for inspiration, but if you post on Steam saying "this is like Code Geass", a good chunk of the people who'd know what series you're talking about would feel nothing but panic.
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Post by Samu-kun on Mar 7, 2016 15:02:49 GMT -8
Well, for what matters, we're working hard to fix the most glaring issues. 1) Yes, I agree that the ending rubbed people the wrong way, which is why we're all working overtime to create what was planned as the beginning of the fourth installment to add into the game for free. 2) Yes, MoA voices certainly can be added to the game and Vaendryl planned to code this in eventually after the release anyways, we just had too many other things to do. We are adding them back. 3) I'm not so sure we can make more story by cutting the voices. The voices were actually contracted out to an agency, and in reality, I personally only had to spend 4 days directing to get all of them. So even if I cut then, I only get 4 days of my time back to add more story, whereas with less gameplay, I get months back to write hundreds of pages of story. I really don't know why the voices are being treated as the scapegoat. I mean, I need to allocate my time since there's only so many hours in a day so I can't draw hundreds of mecha CGs, design and balance dozens of battles, and write a thousand page story, I gotta decide what to focus on.
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Post by failkin on Mar 7, 2016 15:03:17 GMT -8
still nobody upset they made a different genre game than what is posted on their own Patreon site...am i alone here? would it be cool if madden became of FPS? call of duty a puzzle game?
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Post by BITE ME UNIVERSE on Mar 7, 2016 15:17:35 GMT -8
I enjoyed the ending...and it was a real emotional ride.....good job....
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Post by admiralcheese on Mar 7, 2016 15:45:58 GMT -8
Personally I was always interested in the series because it offered strategy vidya AND the potential for a strong story and waifu choices.
They so rarely come together and that had me really excited. If I had to state a hope for future Sunrider games it would be that the Story get the kind of focus the Combat has gotten... maybe a little bit more. Because I'm all about that story...
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 7, 2016 15:48:31 GMT -8
Oh... so the halfhearted comment I gave in a beta I thought nobody cared about was actually read carefully by everyone... and actually, now that I look, from that beta onward the Asaga's Sharr personality that I was mainly criticizing started showing up less... Welp. It seems I messed up. Sorry. I really felt I was kinda not there when everyone kinda could have used my help the most (both Drath and devs). Knowing you were looking at it however makes me very happy though, Samu-kun. I'll try to put a lot of thought in my Writing analysis thread as thanks! I'll be as blunt as always though
Though, if you let me say something, instead of moving more towards JRPG to me it always felt more towards a move to a more pure VN. Heck, I think I even said that a pair of times in the old forums and here. I mean; erasing both Sunrider and Space maps, adding Japanese voice, taking out battle animations to put them in VN scenes, putting a lesser number of choices, etc. It wasn't until the final release that I kinda realized, "huh, it's a JRPG actually!" And, I'm sorry, Drath and everyone who really thought everyone was going to die, but really, the writing is kinda on the wall (heck, i even spotted a bit of foreshadowing here and there!); it's Ava's fate on MoA again, just in a bigger scale. It's actually also something really Code Geasish, now that I think about it; personally don't like it that much (feel that ending a season in a cliffhanger just cheapens the beginning of the next part when it inevitably ends not reaching the expectations). I kinda understand some people not getting it though, it's something really "mech anime-ish".
And damm you vaen! I actually was going to put my theory in days and I wanted to take everyone by surprise with my deduction!
I think you may have missed some small details though, but don't worry, I'll take care of them.
And on battles, I think the key point is that super-massive battles are not always needed, but interesting ones. For example , battle 4 and 10 were actually fairly short (and I suppose take shorter to test), but both were very interesting. I felt them a lot more than battle 3 and 6 that just dragged to me. Of course, massive battles are always nice, but I think part of the repetition I felt in Lib Day was due to them. They were very good, but when you have 6-7 of them is just inevitable they end being similar to each other. It's just natural; a massive battle is just bigger, so you'll also get tired of it a lot easier. For later installments I suggest working on a core of smallish missions (they're also easier to balance too) with some very big battles at the climax
Looking at how you went about it, now I realize a lot of your decisions which previously I didn't understand. Thanks a lot. Personally, I quite liked the ending (with some exceptions of course), and think people were just mad at the game having a very short script for its price and the lack of choice. I suppose every trailer until now suggesting it was going to be the final battle didn't help.
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Post by ariesbuonarroti on Mar 7, 2016 15:49:22 GMT -8
Well, for what matters, we're working hard to fix the most glaring issues. 1) Yes, I agree that the ending rubbed people the wrong way, which is why we're all working overtime to create what was planned as the beginning of the fourth installment to add into the game for free. 2) Yes, MoA voices certainly can be added to the game and Vaendryl planned to code this in eventually after the release anyways, we just had too many other things to do. We are adding them back. 3) I'm not so sure we can make more story by cutting the voices. The voices were actually contracted out to an agency, and in reality, I personally only had to spend 4 days directing to get all of them. So even if I cut then, I only get 4 days of my time back to add more story, whereas with less gameplay, I get months back to write hundreds of pages of story. I really don't know why the voices are being treated as the scapegoat. I mean, I need to allocate my time since there's only so many hours in a day so I can't draw hundreds of mecha CGs, design and balance dozens of battles, and write a thousand page story, I gotta decide what to focus on. Don't wanna sound harsh here Samu but the reason the voices got blamed over the added gameplay is because the added gameplay content felt pretty lackluster, to the point where it doesn't feel like it should have taken development time from the story. Now that you've explained things I sort of see what happened on your end, but the average guy on Steam doesn't know how hard it is to make the battle system work on Ren'Py and how much of a timesink it was. He's going to see the added production values and think "that's what they spent their money on instead of more writing."
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Post by failkin on Mar 7, 2016 15:53:03 GMT -8
Personally I was always interested in the series because it offered strategy vidya AND the potential for a strong story and waifu choices. They so rarely come together and that had me really excited. If I had to state a hope for future Sunrider games it would be that the Story get the kind of focus the Combat has gotten... maybe a little bit more. Because I'm all about that story... yes vns with actual game play have always caught my attention but at this point its way more rpg tactics than vn which just blows my mind since the game is advertised on their own website as VN. I go back to my original point i dont think ive seen a good game have and i quote "too much story" ive never been in love with a series and gone dang i wish that story had been shorter ugh i wanted to mindlessly smack more mobs instead"
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Post by lordgorchnik on Mar 7, 2016 18:45:08 GMT -8
Christ Samu-shamu you are giving Gorchnik's state of Texas a bad name. Fun fact, your lord lives 10 minutes from Funimations dubbing studios. Come down here and drink a beer with your lord. Don't make me fly all the way out to California or wherever you are that isn't Texas.
Are we still listing complaints? No? That's okay Gorchnik will post them anyway.
1) Gorchnik's draw to the original KS was the prospect of finding LOVE IN SPACE. That has not happened in these first 3 installments. Gorchnik did not know we were going to have to play 4, 5, or 6 (or more to get there). But that's okay Gorchnik still loves you. Really this is your lord's only complaint. 2) Vaen's a cool programmer. Wait, that's not a complaint.... 3) You didn't come out and drink with your lord. Now THAT's a complaint.
Look in all honestly, creating a game is hard, your lord has been there. Creating a game stylized on the ever popular Japanese visual-novel while combining strategic RPGs elements while trying to write a coherent story while still making it appealing to an entirely different audience is no small task. Sorry to hear that the game flopped (did Gorchnik read that correctly?) these past couple of days. It's hard to create multiple scenarios of a game in the same universe and expect the same amount of sales each time.
Keep fighting the good fight. If Gorchnik is out in the CA area sometime soon your lord will contact you and we can get drunk together. Looking forward to your next project.
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Post by arkblade on Mar 7, 2016 19:44:58 GMT -8
ok ok, one just an ingenious solution. samu-kun(with melon bunny), please emigrate to Japan. (with Working VISA, it might not difficult to get. if you not have any criminal history) complain of VA will be eliminated in this.
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Post by ariesbuonarroti on Mar 7, 2016 20:44:27 GMT -8
Keep fighting the good fight. I think this bears repeating, by the way. Sam, I guarantee that 99% of the people criticizing LD are doing it because they care. If you look at the negative reviews on Steam, a lot of them are from people with tons of products in their account, but only one review. Sunrider was the only franchise they were invested enough to bother typing out a comment for. That matters.
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Post by Drath on Mar 7, 2016 21:53:51 GMT -8
3) I'm not so sure we can make more story by cutting the voices. The voices were actually contracted out to an agency, and in reality, I personally only had to spend 4 days directing to get all of them. So even if I cut then, I only get 4 days of my time back to add more story, whereas with less gameplay, I get months back to write hundreds of pages of story. I really don't know why the voices are being treated as the scapegoat. I mean, I need to allocate my time since there's only so many hours in a day so I can't draw hundreds of mecha CGs, design and balance dozens of battles, and write a thousand page story, I gotta decide what to focus on. Thanks for the reply, description of the work process and difficulties involved. Having never been a game dev, I admit to not understanding these very well. As a player, turn based gameplay and story are the 2 things I value most though. As for choosing between mecha design, design/balance battles and story writing, I can't choose. I like them all and I can say you do ALL these things well. So my suggestion would be cut VA and funnel all funds there into hiring an additional writer under your supervision to write a side quest/scenario which would then link up back with the main story. You seem to trust Wooly, agree that he reads your intent well and has a decent writing style, so I'd say he should be your first pick. Failing that, I would say task either Vaendryl or Melonbunny to write the short scenario. They've been with you for 2+ years. Surely giving them a bit of creative control isn't too much. Of course make sure you clarify what kind of side quest you expect it to be and what are the potential rewards possible from it. Failing that, I suppose you could get a community member to do it, but the writing quality is going vary widely here so I wouldn't really recommend it. The other idea if you still want absolute control over the script is to outsource some of the mecha art. I really like your style though, but I guess if you can find someone who can mimic your style closely, I wouldn't mind seeing that design of a few new units be passed over to said person. Lastly, battle design and balance testing in side missions can also be relegated to another staff member. Personally I would pick Vaendryl for obvious reasons. Get him backed by a tester pool if you think things might go wrong. If things are still not 100% balanced, it's still ok, as it's just a side mission and can be skipped. In other words, instead of hiring people to do additional VA, outsource some less crucial parts of story or art or other jobs to reliable personnel and let them help share your burden. You retain the final say as to whether the completed story, art, balance has been done to your satisfaction and will then pay them an agreed 1-time payment sum. Finally, make some general polls on what people want to see for the series and what they feel is currently lacking as mentioned by Blackhead. At some point, yes I guess you might need to make some sacrifices. Well if it comes to that and you feel that the VN audience is bigger/ turn based audience is too hard to satisfy then make the relevant changes. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. If you guys go under, there won't be any games in future and everyone loses. My final thoughts on handling the ending narrative (I'm leaving it to you all to decide what's best, no further interference from me): On 'resurrecting' dead people, rescuing people via implausible plot devices, I'll just say that if you do this, IMHO, it cheapens the impact of the narrative and the attachment to the character(s). Protagonist A dead, no problem, click fingers, ressed! Protagonist B mortally wounded, no worries, time travel, solved! etc... At some point, nothing is permanent, everything is changeable and seriously why even care about the story or the main characters when they have 100% plot armor and can't die?
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Post by BITE ME UNIVERSE on Mar 7, 2016 22:19:29 GMT -8
Don't wanna sound harsh here Samu but the reason the voices got blamed over the added gameplay is because the added gameplay content felt pretty lackluster, to the point where it doesn't feel like it should have taken development time from the story. Now that you've explained things I sort of see what happened on your end, but the average guy on Steam doesn't know how hard it is to make the battle system work on Ren'Py and how much of a timesink it was. He's going to see the added production values and think "that's what they spent their money on instead of more writing."Okay, okay, 2 things... 1) I love your avatar. It's gorgeous! XD 2) Most people on steam, let alone this forum, don't know how hard it is to make a GAME work, let alone how to sell it to an audience. Fun fact, your lord lives 10 minutes from Funimations dubbing studios. God damn you Gorby.....
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Post by eider on Mar 7, 2016 22:52:00 GMT -8
*** This post may contain spoilers. I tried to avoid any but some of the things were impossible to. *** I was shocked to discover on release day that people actually skipped most of the gameplay by playing on waifu mode, and breezed through the story in just 3-4 hours. Well, yeah, it's to be expected that the game would be short then, because you essentially took a tactics RPG, skipped all the tactics RPG, and just read the story. It's a pretty stupid reason in hindsight, but this time I think it was just a dumb misunderstanding caused by a bad feedback loop between the developers and the beta testers where the testers talked 80% about the game play, and then the developers thought that people want 80% of the game to be about the battles and figured the story should just be short and to the point so that they can just go back to the battles. It was a pretty costly mistake too because the game flopped, but I think we can survive. I really hope that next time, an entire product doesn't collapse just because of some dumb misunderstanding. You can't expect beta testers feedback to include story when you clearly state that it's in not-finished state and subject to change. There is no way we could've told you that the game is too short in time for you to fix it (say, Beta 5) because by that time we had no idea of how long the story will be. Because of that, everyone just focus on what can be tested - battles. Now that LD is released I can give you some feedback on story: - It's too short. You write "We make games with waifus in them." and "Love in Space is creating Visual novels". It seems obvious that people will look for story. It also seemed a lot shorter than MoA and FA (when i first played them i didn't even notice that MoA is addition) even tho i played both on the same difficulty.
- Forced romance - i don't personally care, but seeing how much resources were put into developing community around waifus in Sunrider it's hardly surprising people reacted like that. You said "Was also not really concerned about ... getting hitched with Chigara ... everyone on the dev team already know ..." - what dev team knows or does not know is not correct way of measuring things - you don't sell your product to dev team.
- Story itself is not realized good enough for me. I expected to get some answers (i played up to Beta 2 or 3) and i got none - instead we have more questions. I imagine most of people are confused as hell about whole Prototype, Diode, Alice and Alpha thing as I was (and partially, still am). Since i'm supporting you on Patreon i got access to the Veniczar novel which explained quite a bit about that part of story - sadly, while i now understand background more and can enjoy story of LD more, most people don't have access to that novel, and even if, you should never expect them to read it because it should be explained in enough details in game itself. While I don't have any issues with unknown things about most of things in Sunrider story (and there were quite a lot of things in MoA and FA), the excessive use of Prototypes in LD story requires some, even basic explanations to be done. I just couldn't enjoy parts of story because it seemed like i skipped something in between that would shed some light at what is happening. In fact, i feel like the whole part about Alice and Alpha meeting was in no consequence for the bigger part of LD story and only confused me (still does, who the hell is Alpha anyway and what's the deal with Prototypes anyway). As summary i can say that sadly it felt like LD carries near to nothing of story that's relevant to bigger image and important for next game.
As for other things: I have no problems with Japanese VA, i like OP and in fact i don't dislike ending that much - I'd imagine most people wouldn't if it wasn't the end of LD or the the story leading to it would be longer.)
As for battles: optimization - that's the only thing i have problem with, and as i wrote on Steam - i don't know about limitations of Ren'Py or how good your code is since i don't have time to examine it, hence i can't speak as fellow programmer to you about it, but just as normal player. Even with your recommended specs, the game is visibly laggy when trying to calculate and display all that shield coverage during battle with Alice. I don't even want to think what that battle would look like on first generation i3 CPU (technically within your specs since you don't specify any model or generation) - i would imagine it being nearly unplayable.
EDIT: Oh, also, i see few of you talking about Code Geass or Mass Effect - please note that the people you're trying to sell game to are not required to know or like CG or ME, or in fact any mecha anime - saying something along the lines "I think if you want to get into the right frame of mind you" will just make people angry and in fact it only shows that you failed to get people in right mindset if you need them to refer to other products to do so. I understand this is forum and it's okay to say it here - but please - avoid it when making official statements or posting on Steam community forums. Just a small advice from me (personally i would be disgusted if authors of game that i paid for 20 USD tell me to go watch {title_here} anime if i want to understand the story)
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Post by worstwaifu on Mar 7, 2016 22:58:08 GMT -8
I thought I was confused the first time I finished the game when it was just a beta. Now I'm just more confused that I've finished it a second time now that the game's out.
I'm locked in a strange state of utter confusion where I can say that I neither really approved or disapproved of the game.
I hope the next game is better. Or less confusing.
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Post by Nemjen on Mar 7, 2016 23:10:15 GMT -8
Christ Samu-shamu you are giving Gorchnik's state of Texas a bad name. Fun fact, your lord lives 10 minutes from Funimations dubbing studios. Come down here and drink a beer with your lord. Don't make me fly all the way out to California or wherever you are that isn't Texas. Why do I get the feeling that all problems you encounter can be solved with drinking? Let me guess, different bottle for each category of life problem - you are starting to sound like a chemist.
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Post by worstwaifu on Mar 7, 2016 23:22:48 GMT -8
As a person who likes to consume alcohol, I can agree with that idea. The Bombay Sapphire Gin is for helping you sleep or pain relief. The Jim Beam is for making Old Fashioned's. The cheap Merlot is to make yourself shudder in a confusing but delightful fashion at the bitter taste, and so on and so on.
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Post by arkblade on Mar 7, 2016 23:45:56 GMT -8
i said again to this forum. about forced romance, it remind me to "Kimi ga Nozomu Eien" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimi_ga_Nozomu_Eienthis is major VN in japan and forced romance(with romance scene) in first chapter. and this relation is once broken. due to accidents in end of first chapter. other heroines gradually approaching to heartbreak protagonist in second chapter. yes, second chapter can be branch, have each true romance route. i think sunrider have those like romance plot. and i can't understood you complain this. i think sunrider is "when thy cry(Higurashi)" like episodic game. we only can see "part of common route" in this time. it didn't have any difference between "single game" if once complete all series. (including part of LD don't have many choice) however, perhaps samu-kun need to be write to steam store page and own LD page to "this game is episodic, this is one of "almost static part of common route". "
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Post by tanker4444 on Mar 8, 2016 0:26:23 GMT -8
i said again to this forum. about forced romance, it remind me to "Kimi ga Nozomu Eien" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimi_ga_Nozomu_Eienthis is major VN in japan and forced romance(with romance scene) in first chapter. and this relation is once broken. due to accidents in end of first chapter. other heroines gradually approaching to heartbreak protagonist in second chapter. yes, second chapter can be branch, have each true romance route. i think sunrider have those like romance plot. and i can't understood you complain this. i think sunrider is "when thy cry(Higurashi)" like episodic game. we only can see "part of common route" in this time. it didn't have any difference between "single game" if once complete all series. (including part of LD don't have many choice) however, perhaps samu-kun need to be write to steam store page and own LD page to "this game is episodic, this is one of "almost static part of common route". " Starting you out with a forced romance but ending it relatively quickly before branching out would be ok, but please remember that its been 2 years, 3 months and 2 days since the Kickstarter was originally funded. I think most people were expecting we´d be deeper into the story by now. Its the third installment. Now, maybe the story samu has in mind will be so large that what we have right now is barely the tip of the iceberg. That´s ok, but we on the outside do not see that and think we´re actually pretty far along.
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Post by admiralcheese on Mar 8, 2016 0:43:24 GMT -8
If anything this should at least serve to clear up a lot of misconceptions on both sides of this.
Which does bode well going forward.
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Post by arkblade on Mar 8, 2016 0:55:19 GMT -8
Although LD problem has been mentioned before.
however truly peoples want to game is once "story correctly complete" in this time. (of course, it need to each true romance route. and not mean denial of sequel using same character) It is the debt of the kickstarter. "when is true final installment ?" "how many years left wait to finish game ?" peoples are tired.
before, i waited 4 years to finish "when they cry", however that chapters(each is full linear plot and end in few hours, and you may know all characters dead in end of chapter) released each half year. shortness of the period did not let tired people. and i waiting to finish some manga for 30 years (eg. Bio Booster Armor Guyver), however that author never promised when is end.
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Post by Marx-93 on Mar 8, 2016 1:34:57 GMT -8
Have to support a little what Drath says. Having his fingers on all the pies yet never doing one fully is precisely what the director is supposed to do. Wooly may be too busy as of now, but i think at least an editor to help you polish the script and add extra thing would be paramount (you always need an editor. Always. Even when you hate him). And yes on the part where the prototypes feel very lacking, both as antagonists (they're like the most incompetents super-humans I've seen in a while, or at least Alice and normal prototypes are) and for their lack of explanation. They feel like a plot device. And Drath While I agree with you a hundredfold, I still think the ending actually leaves a lot of credible open venues to escape. They're in the middle of launching a world ending nuke against Cera with 2 factions that have just now realized they're in war again, and we have a hundred of wild cards in the move. Claude could jump to save them. The PACT ship could simply miss like in does in gameplay, or be destroyed by an Alliance ship seconds before, and the vessel just escape in the chaos. The pod could actually only be a decoy (Ava is more than smart enough to do such a typical tactic as this). The Union may want to save them for some kind of dark reason. Unknown pilot-kun may simply be the pilot of the escape pod and just that good to dodge the lasers. Asaga and Sola may actually come back when they realized something happened (or maybe even their own awakening has a kind of sixth sense), and in their awakened forms making a small hole from which everyone could escape would also be easy. Etc, etc.
Heck, knowing what Ava survived the Captain may even survive that ramming with a partial cybernetic body; the bridge is in the armored core of the Sunrider, and when you ram a 720 meters long warship into a kilometer one, they aren't going to explode like in the movies.
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Post by Nemjen on Mar 8, 2016 1:43:47 GMT -8
I think we are all potentially missing one important detail about future installments... Subject to your final decision in MoA:Ava and Kayto becoming eye patch buddies, it will really become a pirate ship.
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Post by Drath on Mar 8, 2016 1:54:54 GMT -8
Yep he should totally come back and totally say: My name is Kaytomus Maximus Shieridius, joint commander of the liberating allied forces, killer of the Arcadius legions, loyal servant to True Cera, Captain of a destroyed carrier husbando to a murdered waifu. And I will have my vengeance, in this life, or the next or through time travel.
Hold the line! Stay with me! CERA VICTOR!!!!!P/S - Don't get what I'm saying? Can't understand the plot? Maybe people should watch war movies more
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Post by InquisitorJeeves on Mar 8, 2016 3:11:51 GMT -8
So I'm not entirely sure if this counts as feedback, but I'm going to post it here since I don't know where else it would go.
I was playing through Sunrider: Mask of Arcadius again and came across something in the story that didn't quite match up with the (current) ending of Liberation Day.
When you first meet Sola, she says that she was engaged in a battle against the Fallen, who were led by Skolas Crow Harbour. Chigara says that Sola died over 2,000 years ago. And later when talking to Claude and Sola over the fact that she'd been frozen for only three months, Sola says she figured that she was in a frozen state for around two millenia.
But during the post-credits scene of Liberation Day, the random crew member tells Crow (Who I'm assuming is Crow Harbour) that they went forward in time 5,000 years. Then again, I don't really know just how the story will continue from here and the simple answer might just be that some really strange timey-wimey stuff is going down (and the crew of the Harbinger Unknown Super-Dreadnaught went back 3,000 years before going forward 5,000). But I figured I'd mention it just in case it was a typo or something.
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