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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 20, 2016 10:59:17 GMT -8
Placing this here as something of a "test the waters" to see what the general consensus on Liberation Day is nowadays. Am under the impression it was more acceptable then before but generally not perfect, but want to know for sure.
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Post by Nemjen on May 20, 2016 11:48:37 GMT -8
Eh, this poll should really just be 'what was wrong' on its own and then explain what you would change in the comments. People may want more end game content but that doesn't mean it was wrong in its current state because of this. Personally I am fine with Liberation Day as it is as of 2.00 and I am glad to hear they are still adding more content along with standing by their guns about leaving the main story alone for now (at least until next time). If I was to offer a piece of feedback for 'next time on Sunrider' I would like to see more of a balance between gameplay and the writing as there is still a lot of untapped potential about the story's universe / the politics that could be weaved in, the events of Ongess is a good example of this showing local community resentment towards the Alliance. If as previously suggested that it was felt that gameplay fixing took too much time out of the writing then I hope this is used as a basis for the the script to be prioritised with the gameplay built on top, not necessarily cut but investment focused on the bones before you lay on the meat. Oh and also going slightly off topic, hopefully [Re]turn has a reference in it that confirms Starnova is going to be the same universe as the current Sunrider arc (as it would be pretty awesome to have exposition created even when Sunrider is not getting worked on).
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 20, 2016 12:29:23 GMT -8
Eh, this poll should really just be 'what was wrong' on its own and then explain what you would change in the comments. People may want more end game content but that doesn't mean it was wrong in its current state because of this. Personally I am fine with Liberation Day as it is as of 2.00 and I am glad to hear they are still adding more content along with standing by their guns about leaving the main story alone for now (at least until next time). If I was to offer a piece of feedback for 'next time on Sunrider' I would like to see more of a balance between gameplay and the writing as there is still a lot of untapped potential about the story's universe / the politics that could be weaved in, the events of Ongess is a good example of this showing local community resentment towards the Alliance. If as previously suggested that it was felt that gameplay fixing took too much time out of the writing then I hope this is used as a basis for the the script to be prioritised with the gameplay built on top, not necessarily cut but investment focused on the bones before you lay on the meat. Oh and also going slightly off topic, hopefully [Re]turn has a reference in it that confirms Starnova is going to be the same universe as the current Sunrider arc (as it would be pretty awesome to have exposition created even when Sunrider is not getting worked on). That just sounds more like you're accepting what's there instead of thinking it actually improved what was wrong, though. Also, last I checked, it wasn't end-game content people wanted - it was mid-game content (or at least if the Steam reviews or Marx's commentary was any indication). And having people "explain what you would change in the comments" is kinda redundant - the overall point is whether or not what's there is or isn't satisfactory.
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Post by Nemjen on May 20, 2016 14:24:38 GMT -8
Yeah, I am accepting it because I am fine with it? Not saying it is my game of the year but I still got a kick out of it and poured a sizable number of hours in. Also I am not sure why you are trying to pick at the example I made for why your poll is double-barreled as at no point do I say 'people wanted more end game content' but I did say 'may want', generally you measure one thing at a time with a poll to avoid skewing the data with ambiguous directions. On a general note after doing some catch up reading in the 'it should be possible to spoiler to spoiler' thread I think I get the vibe of what you are trying to do here and can tell this discussion is heading in a direction that isn't my cup of tea. I think... I am going to bail on this one.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 20, 2016 14:35:27 GMT -8
Yeah, I am accepting it because I am fine with it? Not saying it is my game of the year but I still got a kick out of it and poured a sizable number of hours in. Also I am not sure why you are trying to pick at the example I made for why your poll is double-barreled as at no point do I say 'people wanted more end game content' but I did say 'may want', generally you measure one thing at a time with a poll to avoid skewing the data with ambiguous directions. On a general note after doing some catch up reading in the 'it should be possible to spoiler to spoiler' thread I think I get the vibe of what you are trying to do here and can tell this discussion is heading in a direction that isn't my cup of tea. I think... I am going to bail on this one. No - I mean more like you're just "content". Plus, one of the whole purposes of a poll IS seeing a general direction out of an ambiguous mass. What you're suggesting is closer to the purpose of a DISCUSSION, not a poll. As for the poll, it's pretty much what Samu himself would have suggested - or are you honestly going to tell me he wouldn't have told me to make a poll if I really wanted to see for myself? At this point... well, to be honest, I'm wondering if you have some personal issue with me(?)
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Post by Marx-93 on May 21, 2016 16:05:01 GMT -8
I think the way this poll is set up is a tad biased.
Nobody will ever refute extra content, by nature we always tend to want more of things, specially if we don't need to pay. When asking people if they want something, they will never say "nothing", even if they're perfectly fine as they are. I think most people voting "It's fine as is" is more because they're voting thinking on the discussion on the other thread.
Now, Liberation Day suffers a lot in its middle content, I myself said that on a number of times. But it's not like I really want Samu-kun to return and expand that part; it would make the game formally a lot better, sure, but I don't think it can help now. The bad impressions are already done, and even if we replayed the whole game we would automatically revert to our earlier impressions when we reached known scenes. Our mind is lazy, if it already has a preconceived notion about something, it's hard to change it. Furthermore, most of extra scenes needed would be of build-up, so I simply think it wouldn't do much for most people. A total rewrite would be preferable to simply adding stuff in the middle at this time.
However, I don't think a total rewrite is worth it? Lib Day is pretty bad at parts, but it's also serviceable; I played worse things, and the general consensus seems to be that people still think of it not as well as the previous games, but are still looking forward to the sequel. A total rewrite, specially if the director/writer doesn't want to do it, may be even worse :if his work in Libday was lackluster, it could end in an even worse disaster.
I think I would simply let it go. I'm not fine with it as it is right now, but sometimes things are not as good as you hoped for. I prefer a sequel, with a fresh state of mind, in which the author can combine his planned ideas with the feedback of his latest work.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 21, 2016 16:20:34 GMT -8
I think the way this poll is set up is a tad biased. Nobody will ever refute extra content, by nature we always tend to want more of things, specially if we don't need to pay. When asking people if they want something, they will never say "nothing", even if they're perfectly fine as they are. I think most people voting "It's fine as is" is more because they're voting thinking on the discussion on the other thread. Now, Liberation Day suffers a lot in its middle content, I myself said that on a number of times. But it's not like I really want Samu-kun to return and expand that part; it would make the game formally a lot better, sure, but I don't think it can help now. The bad impressions are already done, and even if we replayed the whole game we would automatically revert to our earlier impressions when we reached known scenes. Our mind is lazy, if it already has a preconceived notion about something, it's hard to change it. Furthermore, most of extra scenes needed would be of build-up, so I simply think it wouldn't do much for most people. A total rewrite would be preferable to simply adding stuff in the middle at this time. However, I don't think a total rewrite is worth it? Lib Day is pretty bad at parts, but it's also serviceable; I played worse things, and the general consensus seems to be that people still think of it not as well as the previous games, but are still looking forward to the sequel. A total rewrite, specially if the director/writer doesn't want to do it, may be even worse :if his work in Libday was lackluster, it could end in an even worse disaster. I think I would simply let it go. I'm not fine with it as it is right now, but sometimes things are not as good as you hoped for. I prefer a sequel, with a fresh state of mind, in which the author can combine his planned ideas with the feedback of his latest work. I'm sorry, but I think that's a strawman argument - there's a difference between wistful desire and the belief that a game actually needs said changes. This is seeing what the biggest fault was. The issue with that is the fact that, if not addressed now, then the narrative deficiencies of LibDay will have to be addressed in the future installments - therefore the path of the next game will be dictated by what does or doesn't need to be explained/fixed in the storyline LibDay set up for it. It's a mistake to think bad first impressions mean you shouldn't try to fix it - if anything it improves things because it shows a dev is willing to compromise. Fallout 3 seemed to prove that much with the changes made to it's own narrative. I think your viewpoint is very assumptive/presumptive and defaulting to the lowest common denominator. And given the amount of work that was done for [RE]Turn - a non-cannon AU spin-off - whether or not LiS would be willing to put in the effort is academic. Plus, as you yourself stated in your analysis, a total rewrite would NOT be "preferable" because the concepts in LibDay are interesting and could work great in a story if just paced better. If just one single mid-game arc was done that paced things out as a better bridge between the start of the game and the Fall of Cera - one that had the same care and attention given to it as [RE]Turn has - it would would be anything but a disaster. The reason I disagree is because I think it's impossible for such a "fresh state of mind" to exist - LibDay's narrative issues were so heavily criticized that the next game is going to have to face the consequences and deal with it otherwise. People will ask about/question/fear a lack of choices or crewmembers becoming cutouts or story being minimal or (of course) how the "Chigara thing" fits in for the next game, and it's going to set up as much of a precedent for the next game as you claimed MoA & Academy did for LibDay - there really isn't any escaping that.
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Post by Dextix on May 21, 2016 22:39:09 GMT -8
Well i will be making a series of threads about what i think was bad and could be changedd if the games are ever reworked or bundled together for a price. Something like the creators of "Divinity: Original sin did". Those creators released a game and year after expanded on it. Sunrider series could also get the same treatment.
For me, well. I see the plot, the plot is good, but the content and the writting simply suck. There is neither quality nor substance. This is why i hate even the V2 ending. Because it explains shit.
For such big reveals and to have such culmination you need to have build up. There was none. The ending deserves none of it. As comparison we can look at RWBY, at the end of the volume 3 everything goes to shit. But it is done well, because there was content before to explain everything and there was build up to the ending.
I am split on this. On one hand i want more content especially in mid game, so the ending would make some sense.
On the other, i want a full rewrite because the story was full of plotholes, and suffers from the lack of story content in mid game which affects the story of the late game negatively.
Currently, because of the low quality of story from this game (When compared to the last two games) any other sequel is a complete risk of having the same bad quality. Especially since the writer now has Claude as an Deus Ex machina tool for everything.
And yes, rewriting would be beneficial, especially to the writer. Why? Because it is needed. Not all people had problems with Mass effect 3 ending. Not all people had problems with Fallout 3 ending. Yet there is no argument that both of those sucked and needed a rewrite. Same is with this, because it is a low quality story. And it especially angers me because i see the plot and potential it had which was squandered by lazyness of the writer. You had a story that would rival Warhammer 40k novels here. But it was executed so poorly that even 50 shades of gray can provide more story.
About what was wrong, i will try to post 1 thread a day with my opinion, anyone else is welcome to discuss.
P.S. I love the game and the series, that is why i am so critical. Because i see so much potential squandered by a lazy writter. 1 and 2 parts were good, they showed an unrefined diamond in the rough. This however, showed lazyness and inability to write while having such a good storyline and plot plan.
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Post by Dukat Von Shumer on May 24, 2016 16:26:06 GMT -8
Hello, it's my first post on the forum, because I usually just look and vote in polls on waifu's... However I thought important now I give my opinion on things desaprovai on Liberation Day in order to be constructive criticism, already advance that taste much of the work done in Sunrider, as a whole, and look forward for the continued... But let the matter at hand:
1 - The narrative was really short, and as said by you, game production gave more focus to the gameplay... The gameplay is a great differential of Sunrider, it is undeniable, but it is just that, a differential for the game, the main thing is still the plot and the plot is that the fans are passionate.
2 - The relationship with Chigara be required was not good, I think it should be optional, with whoever following Chigara route by choosing to relate lovingly with her and the others who choose other routes have the option to choose a relationship over deep friendship, and even a flirtation not carried forward... I know that here we have the problem that the scene where the Asaga was taken by his bad feelings, was seeing Kayto and Chigara having sex... This scene could be maintained for those who opt for Chigara route, but it could be exchanged for a kiss, in a most vulnerable time of Kayto, but it was not taken forward then.
I know some may say that in Mask of Arcadius, did not complain so much of the love of Kayto relationship with Ava... But the difference is that this relationship was something in the past, with a beginning, middle and end... Do not disturb anything who want to follow a different route from Ava, but also serves as a plot for those who harvest the route it... but this forced relationship with Chigara in the middle of the script, makes the story somewhat strange to those who do not want to relate lovingly with Chigara.
Those are my only problems with Liberation Day, the others were solved with V2.0 ... And to be honest, the end of the V1.0 not bothered me, I found the climax of the destruction of Sunrider and, supposedly death Kayto, a very well done scene and a great end to this episode.
Of all else, I want to thank the excellent work they are doing and wish success to the work of you. ^^
EDIT: I almost forgot one more thing ... From all is voiced, I just thought that is the voice of Sola did not match the personality of the character, the others all were perfect, especially the Ava ... (Put one voice in Kayto also please. And bring back the music Tides to the Game OST ... It is simply beautiful.^^).
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Post by carthienes on Jun 22, 2016 13:53:00 GMT -8
There could never be any question for me - nothing less than a complete rewrite could come close to solving the Liberation Day Debacle.
After completing it for the first (and only) time (in v2), I googled Sunrider modding tutorial and hacked together a mod for Mask of Arcadius that crudely retcons the entire Liberation Day episode out of existence.
Since that proved surprisingly achievable, I am now in the middle of a bigger mod for First Arrival/Mask of Arcadius - a complete rewrite of Liberation Day.
I went back over the script of the latter, trying to find something, anything, that might be worth salvaging. I only managed one thing:
Chigara might have some sort of ESP. Because Space Whales.
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Post by NoNameAvailable on Jul 9, 2016 12:23:09 GMT -8
Hmmm. I think Dukat Von Shumer summarized by position rather well. His point 2 is difficult to fix without a complete rewrite, though ; now, REturn started to suggest between the lines something close to mind-control to (possibly) explain it, but it seems like a cop-out.
I also agree with him that the original ending (as in, the last flight of the Sunrider) wasn't an actual problem with me. In fact, this maybe was the mission where finally, the emotional state matched Kayto's quite well. The new ending isn't bad at all either, with maybe the exception of "Claude is God" thing. I'm sure it was more discussed elsewhere, but I think that part causes more problems than it solves, and it's a narrative landmine.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on Jul 9, 2016 15:30:07 GMT -8
Hmmm. I think Dukat Von Shumer summarized by position rather well. His point 2 is difficult to fix without a complete rewrite, though ; now, REturn started to suggest between the lines something close to mind-control to (possibly) explain it, but it seems like a cop-out. I also agree with him that the original ending (as in, the last flight of the Sunrider) wasn't an actual problem with me. In fact, this maybe was the mission where finally, the emotional state matched Kayto's quite well. The new ending isn't bad at all either, with maybe the exception of "Claude is God" thing. I'm sure it was more discussed elsewhere, but I think that part causes more problems than it solves, and it's a narrative landmine. In all honesty, it seems like the opposite - even Kayto admitted that it was his own desperation for compassion more then anything, as opposed to mind-control. In [RE]Turn, he's basically doing to Chigara what he did to anyone else before - treating her as an enemy even when he knows she's really not (old habits die hard I guess). Plus, I'm not sure it calls for a whole rewrite on the Chigara thing - just the choice to tone it down a bit from the 11 it was taken to.
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Post by vincent on Jul 10, 2016 23:56:38 GMT -8
I don't know personally, I just wish there was a complete rewrite. I know at this point I sound like I am just whining but. My favorite character was Chigara and Jesus Christ she really just got brigaded with what people consider "Character Development" Which personally just felt like constant bashing of a character personality simply because it's something that is "Unrealistic for the setting" I hate talking to friends about it because they think the rant I have is stupid, it's just I feel like they tried to Game of Thrones her just so people would feel bad. When looking at the forums, people actually hate her. Which being one of the only people who did like her it now feels like her character purpose will just be merely nothing, she will be a big enemy to the Sunrider or they will justify her. No matter which way you do it, none of it seems good. I mean Liberation Day Returns just seemed like the community threw a fit so they got a better end to their bedtime story when no matter what, I still was left with a sense of disappointment and sadness. It's almost like cutting a rope, you better be damn sure you wanted to cut that rope because it will be hard to get it back the same exact way it was. And frankly it disappoints me, but I never created Sunrider so I will just watch from the sidelines and see if anything improves. As a fan, I doubt they will improve things for Chigara if I whine, so I might consider not purchasing the next Sunrider VN
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