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Post by truebeliever on May 25, 2016 10:48:41 GMT -8
I was not one of those people who expected [RE]turn to fix all my problems with Liberation Day; I expected a nice diversion, a fun bit of lagniappe. The fact is that I was pleasantly surprised. For all that it's non-canon, [RE]turn actually managed to address a lot of the beefs I had with the main game. Spoilers follow: We now have more in-game information on Alice's origin and motivations. We now see Kayto's crashing the Sunrider put in proper perspective as the rash act it was, and his fragile emotional state is clearly highlighted as the root of his poor decisions. We even get a nice bit where Kayto himself vents about how absurd the relationship with Chigara is on the face of things: how ridiculous it is for him to give up his military career for Chigara's dream, how daunting her insistent vision of having a big family is, and how she never stops going on about that damned bakery. There are all kinds of nice fourth-wall breaking asides too, like when Kayto wonders how they ever managed to beat the Nightmare Ascendant in Liberation Day and surmises that his former self must have been playing on easy mode.
Perhaps most importantly, we now have the player agency that fans wanted so desperately in Liberation Day. Your choices, even seemingly unimportant ones, matter to the game's storyline and your relationships with the women in the game. It was fun to go through [RE]turn multiple times and see which decisions led to which outcomes and to hear Claude take you to task for your bad choices. In fact, I personally hope LiS makes Bad Ends and Claude lectures a regular feature of the series going forward.
I was surprised, as I said, that a non-canon add-on could do so much to improve my opinion of Liberation Day, and yet maybe I ought not to have been. Fate/Stay Night has three major routes, none of which, strictly speaking, are canon in the context of the sequel. Yet each of the routes contributes unique information about the game's characters that can't be found in the others; rather than being superfluous, they're all necessary to understanding the full story. And the non-canon status of the Fate, Unlimited Blade Works, and Heaven's Feel routes takes nothing from the quality of those storylines; for me, my time playing Unlimited Blade Works is a particularly pleasant memory, for all that it officially never happened in the context of Hollow Ataraxia (see post below). It's like the conflicting retellings of the same story in Rashomon: They can't all have happened, and yet each one illuminates a different facet, a different viewpoint; they're all valuable, even if they're not all true.
It goes without saying that Liberation Day's current state, after two major additions, was not a planned result, but in many ways a fortuitous accident, a reaction to fan outcry. And yet I have to admit that its troubled release seems to prove the saying that it's an ill wind that blows no good. It would have been best had all these changes been worked from the start into the linear storyline that fans were expecting, and yet the game's current state isn't so bad either. Instead of getting drip-fed data as you go along, the game is effectively jump cutting, providing background in a way akin to Pulp Fiction's nonlinear direction. You play through Liberation Day and get the "true" storyline. Then you play [RE]turn, and as you go through the various endings, more and more of the story and characters are revealed. They absolutely complement each other, one providing fleet combat and the canon route, the others providing richness and context. Incidentally, non-canon storylines are also something I hope to see more of in the Sunrider series going forward: they're terrific. The more the better.
Had the game somehow been released in something close to this condition -- if LiS itself could somehow go back in time and rework [RE]turn's time traveling mechanic more organically into the main game, for example, providing multiple routes (but still only one canon one) -- then I, for one, would have been delighted by what I took to be LiS' skillful game design. The thought that the company managed to engineer this kind of turnaround in three months amazes me. And maybe that's the real lesson that LiS ought to be taking here. Not just about the importance of listening to fan feedback, but about the importance of getting things right the first time. Had they taken the additional time to polish Liberation Day before release, I think it would have seen much more commercial success. Producing work in white heat is well and good, but cool reflection can help temper a game.
Needless to say, not all is perfection. [RE]turn is as riddled by typos as the rest of Liberation Day (glean, not gleam; Fereldan has multiple spellings, etc.), and yet the fact is that LiS has done solid work here. It works. It absolutely works.
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Post by vaendryl on May 25, 2016 13:08:46 GMT -8
I'm very happy to hear this, as it's pretty much what I hoped for. Even if Sam didn't intend for it, I feel by showing the main story from a different perspective it becomes apparent that not everything was to be taken at face value. It's been said before, but going into the game knowing the genre it's part of (and its conventions) really changes how you view things. for example: to me it was always weird to see people complain about the 'railroaded' romance with chigara when it was so obvious to me personally that it was part of the 'main route', meant to set up events later down the line. of course, if you don't know the story is only getting started and went into libday expecting the resolution of the 'harem' aspect of the series you're gonna have a bad time. And here we have REturn blatantly shoving the players face into the ' unreliable narrator' aspect of the series. Something I feel many players didn't consider or are familiar with. Chigara was flagged as 'bad news' to me ever since the scene in MoA where she was caught installing spy cameras on the ship. for some reason everyone glossed over it, mostly because that was before the whole 'omg prototypes are a thing and they look just like chigara!' but in hindsight that was some heavy foreshadowing. In fact, for what should be a harem game all the way till the end of MoA I had very little trust in most of the waifu, which is very strange for a harem game. you could say the 2 genres are very much at odds with each other, and expecting one and getting the other is always going to taste sour. "What I want to know is, out of all the stories you told me which ones were true and which ones weren't?" "My dear doctor, they're all true." "Even the lies?" "Especially the lies."
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Post by Dextix on May 25, 2016 13:30:33 GMT -8
Aye, i will concede that this DLC as a standalone expansion is good.
Sadly, it isnt canon, so whatever happens in it will have no meaning in the later games.
Dont get me wrong, i like the DLC, i think its commendable that the writer stopped being lazy and wrote something good.
However, again, since it doesnt count as canon or the main game. IT doesnt adress the issues the story had for me. Because those issues still remain because Return is not a canon story.
To avoid any misconceptions i will use Mass effect 3 expanded ending as an example. Since mass effect 3 had a shitty ending it was retconed and reworked and given as a separate product. It however, was canon. Now how would people have felt if the original shitty ending was still the real canon and the updated one was just there to appease them, but in the long term of things, matters nothing because it doesnt count as a main story?
I have that feeling now. Dont get me wrong, i like it, but it being noncanon stories that dont matter at all, sours my experience quite a bit.
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Post by sweetlove on May 25, 2016 15:02:47 GMT -8
I have not actually played through [RE]turn yet but I don't think it'll improve my opinion on how the original LD is regardless.
The issue with Liberation Day is not with its plot, but rather its execution. The story feels inorganic as the gap between MoA and LD is jarring, while the story is bare except for the bare necessities of the main Chigara and Cera liberation plotline. In addition, it also feels very forced, with particular regards to the romance plotline with Chigara, which is particularly grating because I honestly didn't care or mind if Kayto ended up with Chigara as long as it was done well. Unfortunately, it is filled with scenes like Icari's "Beh, your schoolboy crush on the chief's hardly a secret...", which to me felt like "This is canon, so get over it and fuck you", or Ava's subplot with her suspicions, which is a textbook cliche of Mary Sues in a Shoujo manga.
It all feels unnatural, and in that respect, the criticism that players were wrong to take it at face value without looking deeper into it is not without basis. But when left with little avenues of empathising with the characters and what feels like a hostile author, I simply sat through most of the story being dumbfounded and frustrated asking "Why?", and at the end of it all, was not particularly in the mood to think about anything. I had so little faith in the script left that instead of thinking upon whatever I felt unnatural or flawed with the story, I simply ended up attributing it to the writer's shitty writing instead.
Of course, [RE]turn seems- I have not played it yet- to have solved most, or perhaps even all, of these issues, fine. But that will probably end up frustrating me even more, as I feel even now that what part of the success of [RE]turn is based on the failings of LD, by being equipped with the meat and details that should have been in the latter instead. Even simply looking through the OP's post, I can imagine myself being more pliable to the story, as well feeling much less hostile towards the author should even some of these details been present during my playthrough.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 25, 2016 17:07:27 GMT -8
I was not one of those people who expected [RE]turn to fix all my problems with Liberation Day; I expected a nice diversion, a fun bit of lagniappe. The fact is that I was pleasantly surprised. For all that it's non-canon, [RE]turn actually managed to address a lot of the beefs I had with the main game. Spoilers follow: We now have more in-game information on Alice's origin and motivations. We now see Kayto's crashing the Sunrider put in proper perspective as the rash act it was, and his fragile emotional state is clearly highlighted as the root of his poor decisions. We even get a nice bit where Kayto himself vents about how absurd the relationship with Chigara is on the face of things: how ridiculous it is for him to give up his military career for Chigara's dream, how daunting her insistent vision of having a big family is, and how she never stops going on about that damned bakery. There are all kinds of nice fourth-wall breaking asides too, like when Kayto wonders how they ever managed to beat the Nightmare Ascendant in Liberation Day and surmises that his former self must have been playing on easy mode.
Perhaps most importantly, we now have the player agency that fans wanted so desperately in Liberation Day. Your choices, even seemingly unimportant ones, matter to the game's storyline and your relationships with the women in the game. It was fun to go through [RE]turn multiple times and see which decisions led to which outcomes and to hear Claude take you to task for your bad choices. In fact, I personally hope LiS makes Bad Ends and Claude lectures a regular feature of the series going forward.
I was surprised, as I said, that a non-canon add-on could do so much to improve my opinion of Liberation Day, and yet maybe I ought not to have been. Fate/Stay Night has three major routes, only one of which is canon. Yet each of the routes contributes unique information about the game's characters that can't be found in the others; rather than being superfluous, they're all necessary to understanding the full story. And the non-canon status of the Fate and Unlimited Blade Works routes takes nothing from the quality of those storylines; for me, my time playing Unlimited Blade Works is a particularly pleasant memory, for all that it officially never happened. It's like the conflicting retellings of the same story in Rashomon: They can't all have happened, and yet each one illuminates a different facet, a different viewpoint; they're all valuable, even if they're not all true.
It goes without saying that Liberation Day's current state, after two major additions, was not a planned result, but in many ways a fortuitous accident, a reaction to fan outcry. And yet I have to admit that its troubled release seems to prove the saying that it's an ill wind that blows no good. It would have been best had all these changes been worked from the start into the linear storyline that fans were expecting, and yet the game's current state isn't so bad either. Instead of getting drip-fed data as you go along, the game is effectively jump cutting, providing background in a way akin to Pulp Fiction's nonlinear direction. You play through Liberation Day and get the "true" storyline. Then you play [RE]turn, and as you go through the various endings, more and more of the story and characters are revealed. They absolutely complement each other, one providing fleet combat and the canon route, the others providing richness and context. Incidentally, non-canon storylines are also something I hope to see more of in the Sunrider series going forward: they're terrific. The more the better.
Had the game somehow been released in something close to this condition -- if LiS itself could somehow go back in time and rework [RE]turn's time traveling mechanic more organically into the main game, for example, providing multiple routes (but still only one canon one) -- then I, for one, would have been delighted by what I took to be LiS' skillful game design. The thought that the company managed to engineer this kind of turnaround in three months amazes me. And maybe that's the real lesson that LiS ought to be taking here. Not just about the importance of listening to fan feedback, but about the importance of getting things right the first time. Had they taken the additional time to polish Liberation Day before release, I think it would have seen much more commercial success. Producing work in white heat is well and good, but cool reflection can help temper a game.
Needless to say, not all is perfection. [RE]turn is as riddled by typos as the rest of Liberation Day (glean, not gleam; Fereldan has multiple spellings, etc.), and yet the fact is that LiS has done solid work here. It works. It absolutely works.
The big problem with this though... is that much of what you said is a double-edged sword. Everything is as important as you said... but what might jar or even piss people off is why the hell none of this was so much as referenced in the main game.
Regarding player agency... I feel this is, to be blunt, just plain wrong. It ties into something Marx said a while ago about the "illusion of choice" RPG's tend to thrive off of - that your actions alter short-term events but do not actually shift the main story itself, similar to Mass Effect. [RE]Turn is perhaps the biggest example of this all, since all that player agency you mentioned IS an illusion - it changes the story drastically... but because this story's not cannon to the main game, none of it matters going forward.
In fact, the above is kinda why [RE]Turn... actually lowers my opinion of LibDay further. Because [RE]Turn is it's own individual thing - it itself is not LibDay. It proves the writer can write well, and it proves the main story could be made better - but that the devs just don't want to do that. All this stuff about the story and characters could have been put into the mid-game just as easily - hell, it arguably would have been far easier and more (cost-)effective to do so. No matter how good a non-canon storyline may be, the fact of the matter is that it's still not cannon - we won't see it be built off of in the future, yet a main story widely panned as flawed will.
(Also... WTF are you talking about with Fate/Stay Night - it was repeatedly stated that NONE of the routes are more or less cannon then the other in that game; in the writer's opinion, they all happened, by way of multiverse theory I'd guess. So if anything, that's the worst game to make a comparison with.)
So yes, [RE]Turn is good - but at the same time, it blows the original story out of the water so fiercely that it actually is somewhat aggravating that this isn't the story we're going to be following.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 25, 2016 18:57:25 GMT -8
I'm very happy to hear this, as it's pretty much what I hoped for. Even if Sam didn't intend for it, I feel by showing the main story from a different perspective it becomes apparent that not everything was to be taken at face value. It's been said before, but going into the game knowing the genre it's part of (and its conventions) really changes how you view things. for example: to me it was always weird to see people complain about the 'railroaded' romance with chigara when it was so obvious to me personally that it was part of the 'main route', meant to set up events later down the line. of course, if you don't know the story is only getting started and went into libday expecting the resolution of the 'harem' aspect of the series you're gonna have a bad time. And here we have REturn blatantly shoving the players face into the ' unreliable narrator' aspect of the series. Something I feel many players didn't consider or are familiar with. Chigara was flagged as 'bad news' to me ever since the scene in MoA where she was caught installing spy cameras on the ship. for some reason everyone glossed over it, mostly because that was before the whole 'omg prototypes are a thing and they look just like chigara!' but in hindsight that was some heavy foreshadowing. In fact, for what should be a harem game all the way till the end of MoA I had very little trust in most of the waifu, which is very strange for a harem game. you could say the 2 genres are very much at odds with each other, and expecting one and getting the other is always going to taste sour. "What I want to know is, out of all the stories you told me which ones were true and which ones weren't?" "My dear doctor, they're all true." "Even the lies?" "Especially the lies." Okay... I'm going to need a long post, here. As is usual for my somewhat-overdramatic tangents The thing is... the fact that it's a separate story kinda disconnects from such an outcome, in my opinion. Kayto's perspective isn't really all that different from the one we as players already had in observing the story from a third-person player-perspective - if anything, it feels as though this is so critical to the main story that it's confusing it didn't get put THERE. Again, the reason for that was the horrid build-up - it felt like a 'railroad romance' because it WAS a 'railroad romance'; by that I mean that it was painfully straight, predictable and uninteresting. Had Kayto expressed these kind of doubts or hesitance or even off-handed exasperation at Chigara's desires - even as just an internal monologue of surprise or mock-horror at how fast it's going - at least ONCE, it would have made things much more believable even if ended the same way. And you know something - whether or not it was a 'main route' is completely semantical; it's HOW it was executed that got people upset. When dealing with a story about romance, you either need a slow build-up or, failing that, a well-explained one to make believable - yet here it's like there's an entire chapter's worth of events between MoA and LibDay because we saw only the start and end of the romance, which makes it far too clean-cut to be believable given how short it is/how little of it we actually see. Nobody was expecting such a 'harem' resolution - they were simply expecting the character development to be better done. If it were done well enough, people wouldn't have been so mad even if the game ended with Kayto dead and unloved - disappointed certainly, but not outright calling the game's story "horrible" as opposed to "heartbreakingly tragic." That it was part of the 'main route' was NEVER the problem, Vaen - it was that it wasn't done well enough to justify what happened. But the thing you're just as blatantly missing is that there's a difference between an unreliable narrator and an inhuman one - and another difference between narration and observation. The whole point of an unreliable narrator is that we see things from their FIRST-PERSON viewpoint - we see their internal thoughts, their ideas on what's happened, how they rationalize the choices the player makes for them, ect. We NEVER actually saw that with Kayto in LibDay the way we did in [RE]Turn or even in the prior two Sunrider games - in LibDay, Kayto was a character we were guiding instead of an actual narrator because we never saw his internal thoughts anywhere near as much; we never saw him question himself, never saw him conflict with himself the way we did in MoA. We can't call him a narrator, let alone an unreliable narrator, because we never actually saw him narrate anything regarding the relationship he had or the key moments of the game. For example, the scenes in which he and Chigara were talking about kids - it would have drastically helped if Kayto had some witty or comically panicked internal monologue about whether or not he was ready to even be a husband, let alone a father, since he's still in the "comfort romance" stage. Something that showed he was settling into it or the like - the Chigara romance was where these internal-thought sections were most badly needed, yet it was where they were most absent. Also, for the record, I personally think the reason people didn't feel ill of Chigara with the cameras is because she was illustrated as being socially dense due to an isolated life in a lab - where everything being monitored for security reasons would be completely normal - so they understood why she wouldn't see the cameras as intrusive. Same with the Prototypes looking like her - given her lifestyle and parents, it bred the possibility that maybe Chigara wasn't a Prototype but rather that she or her parents were the human template(s) they were cloned from. The stuff was done in such a way that it didn't set off alarm bells or conclusively prove anything - it was NUANCED and SUBTLE; something LibDay glossed over doing for it's characters. In hindsight it was foreshadowing, but in present-tense it was nowhere near heavy enough to paint Chigara as a villain as opposed to just being connected. MoA BALANCED the concepts out, whereas LibDay didn't - so I think what gave a "sour taste" is that it abruptly leaned to one side.
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Post by truebeliever on May 25, 2016 19:01:56 GMT -8
(Also... WTF are you talking about with Fate/Stay Night - it was repeatedly stated that NONE of the routes are more or less cannon then the other in that game; in the writer's opinion, they all happened, by way of multiverse theory I'd guess. So if anything, that's the worst game to make a comparison with.)
You're right, of course, that none of the routes are officially more or less canon than others, and yet there is clearly "a" canon route for the purpose of the sequel, Hollow Ataraxia, which doesn't cleanly match any of the three main routes from Stay Night. For example, Hollow Ataraxia takes place in a universe that closely resembles UTW's end, and yet Ilya is alive, which of course didn't happen in UTW. So I'd argue that my characterization of UTW as non-canon is accurate in the context of the sequel, despite the official "all routes are canon" Nasuverse line. In fairness, I suppose I should have added Heaven's Feel as well, which I've done now.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 25, 2016 19:09:33 GMT -8
(Also... WTF are you talking about with Fate/Stay Night - it was repeatedly stated that NONE of the routes are more or less cannon then the other in that game; in the writer's opinion, they all happened, by way of multiverse theory I'd guess. So if anything, that's the worst game to make a comparison with.)
You're right, of course, that none of the routes are officially more or less canon than others, and yet there is clearly "a" canon route for the purpose of the sequel, Hollow Ataraxia, which doesn't cleanly match any of the three main routes from Stay Night. For example, Hollow Ataraxia takes place in a universe that closely resembles UTW's end, and yet Ilya is alive, which of course didn't happen in UTW. So I'd argue that my characterization of UTW as non-canon is accurate in the context of the sequel, despite the official "all routes are canon" Nasuverse line. Actually, Hollow Ataraxia follows a completely separate timeline that is an amalgam of all three. The In-Universe explanation is that an experiment of Tohsaka Rin's regarding the creation of the Gem Sword Zeldrich (IDK if that's spelled right) backfired and created a brand-new timeline that is a merger of the three routes of Fate/Stay Night. Said new timeline exists alongside the other three. Not only is Illya alive in this new timeline but so is Rider, who is still Sakura's Servant with Sakura herself practicing magecraft (which doesn't happen outside of Heaven's Feel) and Saber is still around too (which only happens in Unlimited Blade Work's good end, "Sunny Day"). Also, Shirou is apparently earning money in London as butler of Rin's nemesis, Luviagelita Edelfelt, which to my knowledge didn't happen in any of the three routes' endings (Unless it happened during the aftermath of the "Fate" route). To put it bluntly, none of the routes could be more or less cannon then the other in that instance.
Also, since Hollow Ataraxia additionally takes place in what is actually an illusion-world built by the grail off echoes/memories of the fifth war, it might be more accurate to say Hollow Ataraxia is the one more at risk of being non-cannon in context to the other games.
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Post by truebeliever on May 25, 2016 19:11:46 GMT -8
Actually, Hollow Ataraxia follows a completely separate timeline that is an amalgam of all three. The In-Universe explanation is that an experiment of Tohsaka Rin's regarding the creation of the Gem Sword Zeldrich (IDK if that's spelled right) backfired and created a brand-new timeline that is a merger of the three routes of Fate/Stay Night. Not only is Illya alive but so is Rider (which doesn't happen outside of Heaven's Feel) and Saber (which only happens in Unlimited Blade Work's good end). Also, Shirou is apparently earning money in London as butler of Rin's nemesis, Luviagelita Edelfelt. To put it bluntly, none of the routes could be cannon in that instance. Right, I've adjusted my posts to reflect that.
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Post by Blackhead on May 25, 2016 19:21:57 GMT -8
Against all my obligations I took some extra time off to play Return, and I’ll get straight to the point: I have some issues with it. I’ll be focusing on the negative aspects in this initial (first impressions) post, since I've so far seen more praise than negative feedback and want to point out the issues I had with it. (Future) Shields just wakes up and accepts the role which is imposed upon him. He was heavily committed to Chigara, to a point of being completely emotionally compromised and dependent on her. Dangerous, ruthless, and ignorant in his attitude towards people who challenged his relationship even. How did he get from that point, to not giving a shit about Chigara anymore all of a sudden? Where’s the development and/or inner-struggle that made him change so significantly? People finally get their agency in regards of Shields potential love interest, problem is: Most characters don’t really have an established emotional/romatic connection towards Shields. If you go for Icari for example, he suddenly starts to drop lines like how he’d always watch/protect her on the battlefield, and is upset that that’s not an option at that moment. As a player you just have to shake your head and say: “Fuck, I played this guy for three games, where is that all of a sudden coming from?” Eva was the positive exception here, her route was for obvious reasons the most grounded and believable. The rest felt extremely off. Asaga/Shields for example always had a completely one sided relationship, and then in Return you can hook up with her after less than a day. (Shows how hard Kayto took the loss of Chigara ) Some transitions were incredibly nasty (for ex: Shields explaining the ridiculous situation to any other cast member, and ALL of them just being: Alright! 100% behind you Captain! Let's go!) I’m not too fond of Icari’s character regressing more and more since the start of LibDay. I’d like to encourage people to compare her portrayal here to how she was on Versta and judge for themselves, she’s gradually becoming a blank archetype rather than a character. I get that it’s easier to write in extremes, but in Return she was for the first time so obnoxiously unstable that it was borderline annoying for me. And this is coming from one of her most “high ranked supporters.” A pretty alarming signal if you ask me. Claude is a real problem, not necessarily in this DLC, but regarding future installments. I am always skeptical of omnipotent characters in stories generally, because they usually drag bags of shit behind themselves. It doesn’t matter whether this character is an ally, enemy, or neutral, it kills suspense, and Return proved it once more. I got her secret ending in my first play-through and everything was looking fine until she stepped in: The nightmare ascended handily dominated the Sunrider crew, and the suspense slowly grew. Can it be stopped? Or is it over?…. And then Claude makes her “god move” and it basically felt like I drove a bus into a fucking wall. That’s how atrocious it was. Isn’t it great when a story hits its lowest point, where normally the climax was supposed to be? You can’t create real suspense with a character like that, she could literally step in any given moment and function as a deus ex machina if required. She should (in her current form) be written out of the story as soon as possible. Outright killing her off or at least defeat/ make her unable to use her powers via. “Worf-Effect” might be a good choice. This would also mean great establishing for the next main antagonist. (Crow?) Note: I respect Return for what it is. But I sincerely believe 2.0 is a far better setup for Sunrider 4 than any Return ending.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 25, 2016 20:25:25 GMT -8
Against all my obligations I took some extra time off to play Return, and I’ll get straight to the point: I have some issues with it. I’ll be focusing on the negative aspects in this initial (first impressions) post, since I've so far seen more praise than negative feedback and want to point out the issues I had with it. (Future) Shields just wakes up and accepts the role which is imposed upon him. He was heavily committed to Chigara, to a point of being completely emotionally compromised and dependent on her. Dangerous, ruthless, and ignorant in his attitude towards people who challenged his relationship even. How did he get from that point, to not giving a shit about Chigara anymore all of a sudden? Where’s the development and/or inner-struggle that made him change so significantly? People finally get their agency in regards of Shields potential love interest, problem is: Most characters don’t really have an established emotional/romatic connection towards Shields. If you go for Icari for example, he suddenly starts to drop lines like how he’d always watch/protect her on the battlefield, and is upset that that’s not an option at that moment. As a player you just have to shake your head and say: “Fuck, I played this guy for three games, where is that all of a sudden coming from?” Eva was the positive exception here, her route was for obvious reasons the most grounded and believable. The rest felt extremely off. Asaga/Shields for example always had a completely one sided relationship, and then in Return you can hook up with her after less than a day. (Shows how hard Kayto took the loss of Chigara ) Some transitions were incredibly nasty (for ex: Shields explaining the ridiculous situation to any other cast member, and ALL of them just being: Alright! 100% behind you Captain! Let's go!) I’m not too fond of Icari’s character regressing more and more since the start of LibDay. I’d like to encourage people to compare her portrayal here to how she was on Versta and judge for themselves, she’s gradually becoming a blank archetype rather than a character. I get that it’s easier to write in extremes, but in Return she was for the first time so obnoxiously unstable that it was borderline annoying for me. And this is coming from one of her most “high ranked supporters.” A pretty alarming signal if you ask me. Claude is a real problem, not necessarily in this DLC, but regarding future installments. I am always skeptical of omnipotent characters in stories generally, because they usually drag bags of shit behind themselves. It doesn’t matter whether this character is an ally, enemy, or neutral, it kills suspense, and Return proved it once more. I got her secret ending in my first play-through and everything was looking fine until she stepped in: The nightmare ascended handily dominated the Sunrider crew, and the suspense slowly grew. Can it be stopped? Or is it over?…. And then Claude makes her “god move” and it basically felt like I drove a bus into a fucking wall. That’s how atrocious it was. Isn’t it great when a story hits its lowest point, where normally the climax was supposed to be? You can’t create real suspense with a character like that, she could literally step in any given moment and function as a deus ex machina if required. She should (in her current form) be written out of the story as soon as possible. Outright killing her off or at least defeat/ make her unable to use her powers via. “Worf-Effect” might be a good choice. This would also mean great establishing for the next main antagonist. (Crow?) Note: I respect Return for what it is. But I sincerely believe 2.0 is a far better setup for Sunrider 4 than any Return ending. I'm going to take a crack at this. And as a surprise, I'll be defending [RE]Turn in points - even if I think it doesn't fix LibDay's issues, it as a stand-alone spin-off is very good. And - SURPRISE - this is gonna be a long post (Also gonna put under spoilers for the time being). Regarding Chigara... I think the reason for Kayto's emotional turn-around is the same as when he was defending her. If there is one thing that has been a constant of Kayto, it's that he's arguably his own biggest critic, perhaps even more-so then Ava - when he feels he has failed or made a mistake, it haunts and consumes him. Much of Kayto's near-physical need to protect Chigara (someone who unconditionally cared for and accepted him as "Kayto Shields" instead of "the Captain) can be seen as stemming from his failure to protect Maray, which, as you said, made him "dangerous, ruthless, and ignorant in his attitude towards people who challenged his relationship", even though he KNOWS they're not trying to be antagonistic. This is basically the same, only the situation's reversed - he's consumed by a need to correct his "mistakes" in dooming his ship and his perceived failure to protect and acknowledge the feelings of his crew, which is leading him to instead treat Chigara with the same ruthless disposition even though he knows it's not her fault. It's the drawback of reckless characters who have such strong senses of morality - they throw themselves into everything too much and often give up more then they actually have to lose to fix their "wrongs", only to never fully do so because their own expectations are too demanding. That said - and this'll probably surprise you - I DO think you have a point about how it was handled. Like in LibDay, there's something of a failure to properly build that part up - it's not impossible for the above events to happen anymore then the 'railroad romance' in LibDay is, but you must explain it properly or else it will certainly FEEL unlikely/hard to believe. Even the normally-airheaded Asaga lampshades this, left shocked at how jarringly-unconcerned Kayto is about detaining his former love interest in her route (granted, she didn't know he was a future-Kayto, but then again from his perspective things only ended a few days ago at max - and Asaga herself doesn't show even half the concern for Chigara that she did in the first games anyway, so there's that). In terms of the other girls... well, same as above; guilt and a feeling of failure led to him falling into a relationship with Chigara that quickly, and you know the old adage of "old habits die hard". It's possible that [RE]Turn's secondary point was to illustrate that even when you're armed with hindsight, it doesn't mean you can escape your vices - as well as the fact that guilt and feeling like you owe someone something can make you act without thinking in the heat of the moment; a lesson that I think was SUPPOSED to be one of the points of LibDay (which it botched) that [RE]Turn executed a bit better(?). - In the case of Asaga, I could understand it because, out of everyone in the crew, she might be the only other one besides Ava that Kayto feels most guilty over. She over-exerted herself to the point of insanity with her Awakenings for his sake (BTW, nice to know that they do apparently cause madness if you're not careful with how it's used, especially as a beginner), was the one who pretty much knew from the start that something was wrong with Chigara, was suffering from hallucinations and stress that he never noticed while making googly-eyes at Chigara, and Kayto very nearly had Asaga killed for the sake of protecting Chigara. Kayto's never been good dealing with guilt, especially over people close to him he feels he failed, so he might feel Asaga "deserved" it to a degree(?). - In the case of Icari, it might be because Icari is someone who's been through the loss of family and quite possibly been through the exact same kind of romantic garbage (a love interest in someone who wasn't what they seemed, ect). And in an odd sort of way Kayto probably respects and admires how Icari was able to keep going when half the time his own failures made him want to crawl under a rock and die. Also, unlike Asaga, Kayto and Icari didn't take it above playful flirting and teasing each-other, which is something the two have kinda done for a while now if you look close enough at the past games, and in the re-written timeline they've probably been dating for a month or so before the scene on the beach. - In the case of Sola, it might be due to her being a very stable and reassuring presence akin to Ava, as well as someone who's already gone through everything he has and then some - lost her family, lost her home, lost her people, she didn't even have the satisfaction of winning it all back; she even "died" in a suicide-by-battle the same as he tried to at Cera. The only thing she hasn't done is get into a bad romance (though then again, we've no idea what kinda political bullshit, including possibly pre-arranged marriages, were set up for her in her time by her father to solidify her standing as a princess). Yet at the same time, she shares Chigara's quality of not tending to judge him for what he's done, though she doesn't sugar-coat things. Also, like Icari, Kayto doesn't go beyond a simple kiss with Sola, with an actual romance only consummating in the remade timeline were there's presumably a month or so of dating between them. - In the case of Claude... well... she's a goddamn God. And the universe just imploded, which Kayto has no clue how to fix, so it was practically done at gunpoint. "War makes strange bedfellows" - especially when you're desperate and can't sink any lower then you already have. The allegiance of the girls also wasn't too bad for me, though I might be biased on that count. Ava expressly said she doubted him at first, even saying front-up that she was only willing to trust him after seeing there were two Kaytos - plus, it gave her a chance to confirm her suspicions on Chigara. Sola's already a time-traveler and, as revealed in V2.00, she had suspicions about Claude for a bit before that, so her approval was easier to understand. Asaga... well, keep in mind that, according to [RE]Turn, she's kinda mentally compromised from the Awakenings she's done in quick-succession so soon after getting it, not to mention was always something of an airhead (and she had a best friend who's a super-genius, which strengthens her ability to suspend disbelief), and this Kayto actually puts stand-alone faith in her like she fantasized about, so... that's not to hard to get. With Icari... well, after everything she's seen so far (Black-Hole generator-superweapons, mass-produced army of psychically-linked clones, a Ryuvian Princess from 2,000 years ago, special abilities that allow interface with machines, lost technology that can alter the fabric of time or shift one through it like the Wishwall, ect), time-travel isn't going to be too horrible stretch, though she DID balk at it for a bit. With Icari's Tsundere changes... I think one could gauge that in a similar vein to how Kayto changed as the series progressed. Icari, by her own admission, has boxed up her feelings for so long that she doesn't even know what's what anymore when it comes to her emotions, so being in a socially-dependent environment like the Sunrider is awkward for the long-time loner. She wants to fit in, yet at the same time doesn't want to lose her independence or come off as desperate. Add to that there being a certain blue-haired pro-Alliance foil to her personality who's pretty much taken a steel mallet to her shell with all the subtlety and grace of a bull in a china shop, and Icari is basically trying to rebuild her ability to have "normal" feelings from scratch without wanting it to be obvious she's having trouble doing so. Now granted, I do think you're right that the Tsundere thing is becoming DANGEROUS overdone on Icari thus far, but at the same time I could understand herself becoming a bit (but just a bit) like that as a coping mechanism to help acclimatize to a life she's really not been cut out for since childhood - not to this extreme perhaps, but certainly the overall path. With Claude... yeah, I agree largely. Though what makes it a bit more acceptable for me is when reality pretty much collapsed because of her actions and Kayto apparently had to go on a decades-long trip through time and space just to find a way to fix it, proving she can't in fact just jump in like that lest it be game over in a different sense. In fact... in a twisted sort of way, if the final scene of Claude's ending is to be believed, it kinda points to a Mortal Kombat 9 scenario where, like Raiden with his past self, the Kayto of [RE]Turn's timeline is the one who gave the original, human Claude Triello the means to become a (Demi-)God in the first place, setting up the events of Sunrider itself and making what happened in Claude's end of [RE]Turn part of the whole 'end of reality' fiasco the main-timeline Claude is trying to fix in the main series' events (just a mindless theory granted, but no less interesting to think about). On a more grounded note, the device Claude gave Kayto (which Kayto remarks pretty much makes himself a God by way of it's abilities) seems to definitively point to Claude's Godhood being born of technology - and therefore possible to annul, if someone possesses and/or understands it or similar tech. In closing, I agree that [RE]Turn is good for what it is and that what's in LibDay is a good setup for the next game - however, I also feel that LibDay would be better served if parts of [RE]Turn (namely the more introspective stuff and the tidbits about "Awakening = Insanity risk", Kayto's nervousness about a quick relationship, ect) were spliced into it's main story.
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Post by Marx-93 on May 25, 2016 22:20:39 GMT -8
Something I feel many players didn't consider or are familiar with. Chigara was flagged as 'bad news' to me ever since the scene in MoA where she was caught installing spy cameras on the ship. for some reason everyone glossed over it, mostly because that was before the whole 'omg prototypes are a thing and they look just like chigara!' but in hindsight that was some heavy foreshadowing. If I can defend with something, I always claimed, even before Academy, that Chigara would go yandere! And was always rubbed off the bad way by her childishness (which also actually makes some kind of sense considering she probably barely has a year or 2) and "oh, I zapped two random guys by accident, that's supposed to be cute, right?". *cough* Obvious things aside, I'll probably comment on REturn when I've, you know, actually played it. I'm hearing good things, though I probably won't be doing a super-long review this time.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 26, 2016 18:45:40 GMT -8
Something I feel many players didn't consider or are familiar with. Chigara was flagged as 'bad news' to me ever since the scene in MoA where she was caught installing spy cameras on the ship. for some reason everyone glossed over it, mostly because that was before the whole 'omg prototypes are a thing and they look just like chigara!' but in hindsight that was some heavy foreshadowing. If I can defend with something, I always claimed, even before Academy, that Chigara would go yandere! And was always rubbed off the bad way by her childishness (which also actually makes some kind of sense considering she probably barely has a year or 2) and "oh, I zapped two random guys by accident, that's supposed to be cute, right?". *cough* Obvious things aside, I'll probably comment on REturn when I've, you know, actually played it. I'm hearing good things, though I probably won't be doing a super-long review this time. Repeating this a bit for personal thoughts; I personally think the reason people didn't feel ill of Chigara with the cameras is because she was illustrated as being socially dense due to an isolated life in a lab - where everything being monitored for security reasons would be completely normal - so they understood why she wouldn't see the cameras as intrusive. Nor would she possibly see zapping people in defense of someone who couldn't take them on as bad - rationalize and compartmentalize, which she is able to do in the main games all the time (kill people in her Ryder even though she hates killing). Same with the Prototypes looking like her - given her lifestyle and parents, it bred the possibility that maybe Chigara wasn't a Prototype but rather that she or her parents were the human template(s) they were cloned from; if the Prototypes were a creation of Diode that went rouge, it could be easy to see it go either way. As for her going "yandere", I admit that it's easy for "Dere" characters hyper-sensitive to emotional crap to fall into that state, but in the end the Yandere transformation's really possible for any character if they get pushed far enough the right (or maybe wrong?) way - in the words of the Joker in "Batman: The Killing Joke" ~ "All it takes is one bad day." And LibDay - where Chigara got body-jacked, turned into the mass-murderer of the Alliance leadership, doomed her love's homeworld and the galaxy to destruction, was mind-fucked learning she WAS a Prototype with artificial memories and a fake identity, felt the trauma of dying painfully in her love's arms and, finally, had her mind be dissolved into the Mindstream with her obsessive love/guilt/self-loathing being the only things strong enough to keep her individuality intact (plus possibly having Kayto disown their relationship as a comfort-stress mistake) - was DEFINITELY Chigara's "one bad day." Point though; the links between Chigara and the Prototypes was done in such a way that it didn't set off alarm bells or conclusively prove anything - it was NUANCED and SUBTLE (you know, the very thing you kept trying to claim Sunrider didn't have/was terrible at?); something LibDay glossed over doing for it's characters. In hindsight it was foreshadowing, but in present-tense it was nowhere near heavy-handed enough to paint Chigara as a villain as opposed to just being connected in a general sense.
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Post by sweetlove on May 26, 2016 20:30:59 GMT -8
it was NUANCED and SUBTLE (you know, the very thing you kept trying to claim Sunrider didn't have/was terrible at?); something LibDay glossed over doing for it's characters. Funnily enough I thought the opposite; LD went off into the other direction to the point that there was nothing to work with, which was why it was so frustrating. Had it added a bit more details to help us empathise with the characters, or made clear a list of 'canon' choices for MoA while simply retaining the points over for future use instead of this vague bullshit, it would have been much better recieved; at least by me. Anyway, having played through it, I didn't like [RE]turn too much, but I found it satisfying at least, and that's a steady progression since the launch of LD that I'm happy about. I definitely liked it better than 2.0 at least, which felt too much like a band-aid. Nevermind the old adage of "show, don't tell", it literally infodumps you the emotions and motives of each character, which though sorely needed, only highlights the flawed narrative with the original. But while [RE]turn does indeed do something similar, it fits it within a larger narrative of its own. Of course, there are a few holes here and there, but nothing I minded too much. Actually, if there is something that is grating, it is its 'harem manager' aspect of the story, which I honestly felt was unnecessary. Claude's ending felt fine, and while I have more reservation about Icari's, it was well written. Ava's had a few hitches in the writing, while both Asaga and Sola's romances plain out felt really awkward/forced. The entire aspect just feels like it was based off the need to add romances for each character, which feels kind of annoying, though it's simply a design choice in the end. Alas.
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Post by MagnificentBeard on May 26, 2016 23:22:04 GMT -8
Well let's see, where to begin. I was never very good at formulating good discussion of my opinions. Especially when anything I have to say has already been said. Doesn't help that I kinda forgot about Sunrider for a couple months, so I feel a little rusty and out of the loop.
I suppose i'll start by saying just how much of a fire [Re]turn's writing lit that I wasn't expecting. First run through it I was on the edge of my seat. I felt tense and excited in a way Sunrider had failed to invoke in every previous situation. The amount of buildup and sense of weight didn't feel as quickly paced as previous parts of the story, had a chance to really sink in as the plot went on. I know i'm easily pleased as most of Sunrider since the beginning seemed fine to me storywise (Gaping plotholes/omissions aside), but [Re]turn (And some talk with another old forum goer who is not among us here) is making me look back on the writing even less favorably than I had before. I once said to him that Sunrider was 75% strategy, 25% story. All this story made me a very happy man.
Not that it's without it's low points. Far from it. Haven't found all the endings, and I suspect I probably won't. (Call me a softie, but the good endings are what i'm here for, not that I didn't die twice the first round. It was disappointingly easy to get the good for the other's i've done since the first...)
But I digress. As much as I enjoyed the effort put into making such a wordy edition to this series, it did highlight and exacerbate some of the things that were already starting to rub me the wrong way. As the good Sir Blackhead above me said, and I quite agree, Icari has regressed into something of a mess. Love me some Tsun's, but I don't think i've ever witnessed one so painfully executed. Of all the times she ever uttered the phrase "It's not like I like you or anything..." (Many times), only once did it ever feel like it was appropriate. You gotta put more effort into your tsuns, lest they feel like 2-bit actors in a low budget play.
And then there's Claude. Now i'm happy that there's now more to her than a her chest anomalies and the headache that comes with her, but... I dunno. Deity, Reality Bender, Time Distorter, whatever she is, she's a dangerous character to have directly involved in the plot for the plots own sake. I like the idea of such characters immensely, but the moment they get involved as she has, the potential for the writing to implode just feels incredibly likely. I'd say more if I had any thoughts to avoid such a thing. Alas, i'm no good for writing advice, so I'll leave it at that.
The copy/paste nature of the routes was disappointing, but I managed to predict it, so I guess that softened the blow a little. Kinda. But I suppose it's just as well your partner was so easily interchangeable. And it's just as well cause it's not canon. Non of it. Well, most of all of it.
And that's the one thing that's started to really drag my enthusiasm back down again. This rather impressive attempt to change perspective, fill out the story, backstory, dialogue and character building. All that's good and all of my misgivings are on a sideshow. Is this a sign of things to come from the main plot/game that i've started to grow distant from? That some of those I know from the previous forum, and even back before the forums had also grown distant from? Or is it just a pleasant detour? A nice, bowl of thick steak story soup before we go back to something thinner?
Whatever the case, i'll keep my eye on things. I backed this endeavor after all. ... ... ... ... Also, no dedicated Kryska route. Poor lady will never have her time in the spotlight huh? Too bad. The sight of her eyes when she's flustered are a joy to behold.
......And wouldn't you know it, there was an official feedback thread too. Aw well. I'll just leave this here. See how little attention I pay to where I end up? Bah!
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Post by Marx-93 on May 27, 2016 4:32:55 GMT -8
Point though; the links between Chigara and the Prototypes was done in such a way that it didn't set off alarm bells or conclusively prove anything - it was NUANCED and SUBTLE (you know, the very thing you kept trying to claim Sunrider didn't have/was terrible at?); something LibDay glossed over doing for it's characters. In hindsight it was foreshadowing, but in present-tense it was nowhere near heavy-handed enough to paint Chigara as a villain as opposed to just being connected in a general sense. ... I didn't plan to answer seriously in this thread, but if you feel need to nip at me on every passing moment wherever I post, fine. No, it wasn't nuanced nor subtle. Even just after the end of MoA, all polls in the old forum pointed to Chigara being the first choice for the traitor, even with Kryska's presence making her the obvious choice. After Academy (and the very subtle sister switch), the main reason people though Chigara may not be the traitor would be because it was too obvious; even when at that moment Chigara's popularity was near Ava's and her fans were clearly in denial. While the camera and zapping things where supposed to be framed comically (though for me the zapping was not justified, specially considering how just talking would have solved or that the fair thing would have been to zap either Asaga or all of them), together with her thoughts about technology it painted a clear picture of her. She is childish, too naive and clearly doesn't realize her power and talent.The alarm bells had clearly sounded, and even while a lot of people were joking about her going yandere, everyone knew she had the most potential of all if something bad happened. The question was more on how and why, which couldn't be predicted considering that mind-hacking was introduced 1 hour before her betrayal. You could argue that perhaps the transition from "framed-comically" to "taken seriously" could be a good twist, but subtle? Or nuanced? Taking a comical archetype and making it serious can be a good subversion and betrayal of expectations, but has nothing of neither. It's not even fleshed out, as comical archetypes are very simple by nature. Now, I will stop derailing this thread and post my impressions on REturn when I manage to finish it.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 27, 2016 14:03:23 GMT -8
Point though; the links between Chigara and the Prototypes was done in such a way that it didn't set off alarm bells or conclusively prove anything - it was NUANCED and SUBTLE (you know, the very thing you kept trying to claim Sunrider didn't have/was terrible at?); something LibDay glossed over doing for it's characters. In hindsight it was foreshadowing, but in present-tense it was nowhere near heavy-handed enough to paint Chigara as a villain as opposed to just being connected in a general sense. ... I didn't plan to answer seriously in this thread, but if you feel need to nip at me on every passing moment wherever I post, fine. No, it wasn't nuanced nor subtle. Even just after the end of MoA, all polls in the old forum pointed to Chigara being the first choice for the traitor, even with Kryska's presence making her the obvious choice. After Academy (and the very subtle sister switch), the main reason people though Chigara may not be the traitor would be because it was too obvious; even when at that moment Chigara's popularity was near Ava's and her fans were clearly in denial. While the camera and zapping things where supposed to be framed comically (though for me the zapping was not justified, specially considering how just talking would have solved or that the fair thing would have been to zap either Asaga or all of them), together with her thoughts about technology it painted a clear picture of her. She is childish, too naive and clearly doesn't realize her power and talent.The alarm bells had clearly sounded, and even while a lot of people were joking about her going yandere, everyone knew she had the most potential of all if something bad happened. The question was more on how and why, which couldn't be predicted considering that mind-hacking was introduced 1 hour before her betrayal. You could argue that perhaps the transition from "framed-comically" to "taken seriously" could be a good twist, but subtle? Or nuanced? Taking a comical archetype and making it serious can be a good subversion and betrayal of expectations, but has nothing of neither. It's not even fleshed out, as comical archetypes are very simple by nature. Now, I will stop derailing this thread and post my impressions on REturn when I manage to finish it. Not to be rude, but I was kinda here first, dude. Yes, it WAS nuanced AND subtle, because it wasn't a flat-out 'this is the villain!' cry that you or Vaen are saying - not until the very end of MoA was the idea of clones or the like even introduced yet, and even then, because of the set-up of her parents being scientists, it bred the possibility that Chigara was, as Kayto in [RE]Turn believed, a rouge product of her parent's/homeworld's work that she or her parent's DNA was the template for. There was speculation but nothing solid - nothing that definitively proved one thing over the other. That IS nuance and subtlety. Also, did you ever stop to think that maybe; - (A) People just WANTED her to be the traitor even if it ended up she wasn't, just for the sake of drama? - (B) People felt Chigara might have been a sleeper-agent who DIDN'T KNOW she was a spy, therefore it could be an interesting character twist that would make her all the more better? - (C) People, like now it seems, Chigara was starting to just plain lose favor among fans? - (D) That the old polls were largely knee-jerk instant-reactions that dissipated once people had a moment to stop and think post-reveal? Also... sorry, but what? Last I checked at that point, I'm pretty sure people felt Kryska was going to be standing with the Sunrider because of the whole 'family over duty' cliche that seemed to be building between her and Icari, so Kryska was hardly the "obvious choice" compared to Asaga's budding envy or Ava's dispassionate duty-over-love approach. And with the camera and zapping things, again - she was born and raised in a LAB. She grew up around and was raised by scientists with only dispassionate, depersonalized textbook definitions of what social interaction actually is - she was never really taught how to function in the real world, let alone have any experience in what is or isn't awkward or odd for the average person. Hell, Chigara herself FLAT-OUT SAID that this very thing was why she was so nervous in groups or talking with others; because she had no real grasp of what "social norms" were (and Asaga hardly counts considering she hardly fits any social norms herself). In the end, NONE of those are cases where "the alarm bells had clearly sounded" - they're markers you could reliably find in ANY sheltered life, potential notwithstanding. Asaga fits the bill as well, being "childish, too naive and clearly doesn't realize her power and talent" just as much as Chigara, simply because she too don't have very much experience in the world beyond her preconceptions - she simply expresses it in the opposite-extreme manner. Hell, even Kryska fits those criteria with how diehard faithful she is in the Alliance and her beliefs of justice and righteousness always winning out. As a result, those two had as much potential to "go yandere" as Chigara if they'd had their own "one bad day" - and Asaga herself actually did so first, whereas Chigara was taken over by Alice and therefore didn't actually "go yandere" by choice at that point. So given all the above, YES - it can actually be called nuanced and subtle because it had the potential to be all these things at once. Given how the backstory was laid out, one could take her naiveté just as seriously as they could comically - pragmatically or humorously. You could see it both ways without either interpretation being wrong, and neither one could prove for certain whether or not Chigara was Prototype or human, so I don't see how you can try to claim it's not nuanced, subtle or fleshed out. I mean... do you really just not WANT to acknowledge anything pre-LibDay (besides Ongess) as being more nuanced or subtle then what LibDay gave out? The fact of the matter is that [RE]Turn did what LibDay should have done when it came to this - it went back to being nuanced and subtle and got a bit better at it. Yet it still stings because this is all a moot point - it's not cannon; it's not the story we're building off of in the next game, so even though it's good it still feels empty in a way.
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Post by Dextix on May 27, 2016 21:35:09 GMT -8
I completely disagree that Chigara was subtle or nuanced. The whole reveal hit like a train and you were given everything in LD to suspect her.
If you would say that Chigara was subtle and nuanced in the first two games, i would agree. But in the third that went out the window.
It was as subtle as a goddamn train. You were instantly revealed that she is the spy despite Kayto being a complete dipshit and thinking with his dick instead of his head. You could see what is going to happen Miles away!
I completely hated what they did with Chigara, since again, there was no goddamn realistic build up and that forced romance was horrible. And yes, in my opinion it was all subtle before LD. But LD fcked everything up with its horrible writting.
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Post by SharrOfRyuvia on May 27, 2016 21:54:19 GMT -8
I completely disagree that Chigara was subtle or nuanced. The whole reveal hit like a train and you were given everything in LD to suspect her. If you would say that Chigara was subtle and nuanced in the first two games, i would agree. But in the third that went out the window. It was as subtle as a goddamn train. You were instantly revealed that she is the spy despite Kayto being a complete dipshit and thinking with his dick instead of his head. You could see what is going to happen Miles away! I completely hated what they did with Chigara, since again, there was no goddamn realistic build up and that forced romance was horrible. And yes, in my opinion it was all subtle before LD. But LD fcked everything up with its horrible writting. Um... dude? I WAS talking about FA and MoA, where, even after seeing Arcadius unmasked, there was enough of a nuanced background to Chigara to imply she might not have been one of the clones as opposed to their source-template. My whole point was that LibDay was where the ball was dropped on that - and not before LibDay, like Marx keeps trying to claim. On a more on-topic note, that brings be to perhaps the one really big thing that [RE]Turn got wrong (and I say this judging it as a spin-off instead of a "story addition" since it doesn't actually serve as part of the main story) - and that is there was no development on Chigara herself. Think about it - one of the biggest issues with the romance was not only that we didn't see Kayto's inner thoughts, but also that we didn't see Chigara really struggle or worry or develop; we didn't see her in any of her own moments of weakness or be comforted. LibDay painted Chigara as some kinda angel, while [RE]Turn, in spite of being good, kinda demonizes her even while acknowledging what happened wasn't really her fault, so that's probably the single biggest criticism I could give [RE]Turn on it's own merits (not going to touch on how, again, it doesn't fix the issues of the main story since it's pretty much a separate spin-off altogether, but that's another gripe and not truly the focus of this thread).
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fay
Civilian
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Post by fay on May 29, 2016 10:25:25 GMT -8
to me it was always weird to see people complain about the 'railroaded' romance with chigara when it was so obvious to me personally that it was part of the 'main route', meant to set up events later down the line. of course, if you don't know the story is only getting started and went into libday expecting the resolution of the 'harem' aspect of the series you're gonna have a bad time. To be fair to the complainers, Sunrider has been billed as a trilogy since the beginning of the series (the Steam page for MOA still calls it that) and that LD was the finale of the series was mentioned a couple times before release. The players weren't thinking about "events later down the line," they believed this was the last game!
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Post by MagnificentBeard on May 29, 2016 10:49:08 GMT -8
to me it was always weird to see people complain about the 'railroaded' romance with chigara when it was so obvious to me personally that it was part of the 'main route', meant to set up events later down the line. of course, if you don't know the story is only getting started and went into libday expecting the resolution of the 'harem' aspect of the series you're gonna have a bad time. To be fair to the complainers, Sunrider has been billed as a trilogy since the beginning of the series (the Steam page for MOA still calls it that) and that LD was the finale of the series was mentioned a couple times before release. The players weren't thinking about "events later down the line," they believed this was the last game! I'll admit, I was one of the people who probably didn't think that far ahead and started to grumble. Then we got to where we are now and I thought, "Oooh so that's where we were going! I'm cool with this development."
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